Backlash against Trumpist fake christians

Dutch Uncle said:
The range of beliefs under Hitler, even after it was clear where he was taking Germany, is shocking because it parallels the movement of Christianity in America.

"Christ has come to us through Adolph Hitler."

No wonder the Evangelicals flocked to Trump. He's the Chosen One. He even said so and they supported it.

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Nationalism and religion can often be two sides of the same coin.
 
Phantasmal said:
I believe Grant was an atheist. He was a very strong proponent of the separation of church and state.
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I'm a very strong proponent of the Constitution too but that doesn't make me an atheist. This link details Religion in the White House, but doesn't shed new light on Ulysses S. Grant.

FWIW, I agree on both Grant's view of separation of church and state and the non-republican aspect of government-forced religion, including non-religion. What adults do in their bedrooms is their business. Same for religion. Government should have nothing to do with it as religion. All adults are always responsible for their actions so pedo priests and raping pastors can't use religion as a shield...and anyone hiding them is an accomplice.


https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/godinamerica/god-in-the-white-house/
Ulysses S. Grant was not a member of a church, nor was he baptized. He is often categorized as a Methodist, likely because his wife was a Methodist or because of an incident in which a Methodist minister allegedly sprinkled water on a sleeping Grant after he had taken ill and announced the baptism to the public. Grant himself had a negative experience with organized religion in his youth. While at West Point, he got into trouble for not attending religious services. He wrote to a cousin: "We are not only obliged to go to church, but must march there by companies. This is not republican."
 
Cypress said:
Nationalism and religion can often be two sides of the same coin.
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History proves it has been. It also proves that they've fought each other too. Religion is a tool to spiritual enlightenment. Like any tool it can be abused or misused. All depends upon the user.

As you've pointed out, the complicity of pastors and priests in support of fascism and the brutalization of others is an example of the same coin.

OTOH, there are always people like Pastor Martin Niemöller who wrote this great piece of wisdom:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Paster Martin Niemöller spent 7 years in prison, mostly in a concentration camp, under the Nazis. As long as the human race has such people, I think we stand a chance of surviving as a species.

FWIW, Niemöller was literally a U-boat Commander. Maybe that's where he grew his balls to stand against Hitler. :laugh:
 
Trumpet said:
Christianity in this country has been corrupted, and perverted and converted into a tool for the far right to indoctrinate the not so intelligent with right wing ideology.
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Unless you mean every Christian has, then I think it only applies to those "Christians" who support Trump. In their defense, most seem to be poorly educated and/or have mental issues, both of which indicates how our society has failed them.

Society, not government since American society is largely "Fuck you, I got mine" as proved by our politics.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
History proves it has been. It also proves that they've fought each other too. Religion is a tool to spiritual enlightenment. Like any tool it can be abused or misused. All depends upon the user.

As you've pointed out, the complicity of pastors and priests in support of fascism and the brutalization of others is an example of the same coin.

OTOH, there are always people like Pastor Martin Niemöller who wrote this great piece of wisdom:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Paster Martin Niemöller spent 7 years in prison, mostly in a concentration camp, under the Nazis. As long as the human race has such people, I think we stand a chance of surviving as a species.

FWIW, Niemöller was literally a U-boat Commander. Maybe that's where he grew his balls to stand against Hitler. :laugh:
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Religion is a powerful thing, because of it's connection both to moral philosophy and to the seats of power (aka, government and nationalist movements), either for oppression or for liberation.
 
Cypress said:
Religion is a powerful thing, because of it's connection both to moral philosophy and to the seats of power (aka, government and nationalist movements), either for oppression or for liberation.
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Religion has always been used for oppression. Never been otherwise.
 
Celticguy said:
whats a fake Christian and how is it possible to identify one ?
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Hypocrisy is my go-to ID tool. :thup:

BTW a "fake Christian" is a lip-service Christian.**

Sure, we all fuck up, but someone who constantly and intentionally goes against Christian ideals doesn't fall under the "we're all sinners" rule.

Example: William Jefferson Clinton. Classic fake Christian who repents on Sunday and deliberately sinned all week. He's an example leaning on the "the flesh is weak" crutch. It's bullshit. He's a lip-service Christian AKA fake Christian.

** What real Christians look like:

https://thinkdivinely.com/lip-service/
The Bible unequivocally teaches that a “lip-service” profession to Christianity is insufficient evidence that one is truly born again. Born again Christians are sincere followers of Jesus, and you can tell by their actions. So, what does it mean, then, to be truly “born again?”

  1. Someone who follows the teachings of Christ and practice those specific set of beliefs.
  2. Those who commit murder, rape and other violent acts of rebellion in the “name of God” do them contrary to God’s will. The Bible is clear about these issues.
  3. Hypocrites aren’t anything new. Jesus hated hypocrisy and denounced it. (Matt. 6:2, 5, 16; 7:5, 15:7, 22:18; 23:13, 15, 23, etc.)
  4. Believing is not enough! One must now act on those beliefs to show they’ve changed from within. 1 John 3:9: “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.” This is not saying that no ‘true’ Christian will ever commit a terrible sin—that sometimes happens—but they do so contrary to God’s will, not because of it.
  5. Anyone who hates, doesn’t have eternal life within them (1 John 3:15). Those who hate shouldn’t consider themselves Christians.
  6. Unrepentant murderers aren’t saved. Crusaders and others who murdered in the name of Christ weren’t saved (this is different than those who killed enemy combatants in a ‘just’ war.)
  7. Real repentance happens on the inside but changes the outward person. This is based on the Reformation maxim: “Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone.”
  8. Satan sows false believers among the true believers—and he sows a lot of them. (Consider the parable of the wheat and tares in Mat. 13.)
  9. Watch people’s actions, not necessarily their words. Consider Ephesians 5:5-6: ”For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
  10. Lastly, Jesus said that not everyone who calls themselves Christians will gain access to heaven. “Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Mat. 7:23)

When considering God and Christianity, the best bet is to find followers who exemplify what it truly means to be “born again.” Those folks are the real deal.
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BidenPresident said:
As Machiavelli said, a political leader should never be religious but pretend to be in order to control the masses.
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The British slave trade was ended, first and foremost, by the efforts of English christians.

A middle school level of historical knowledge is generally all that's needed to understand the role the Baptist Rev. Martin Luther King played in American civil rights, the role Hinduism played in expelling the British from India, and the role South African theologian Reverend Desmond Tutu played in the anti-aparthieid movement.

In my book, it doesn't pass the laugh test to claim religion has never done one single, solitary thing to benefit the human condition.

You actually lose credibility with statements like that.
 
Cypress said:
The British slave trade was ended, first and foremost, by the efforts of English christians.

A middle school level of historical knowledge is generally all that's needed to understand the role the Baptist Rev. Martin Luther King played in American civil rights, the role Hinduism played in expelling the British from India, and the role South African theologian Reverend Desmond Tutu played in the anti-aparthieid movement.

In my book, it doesn't pass the laugh test to claim religion has never done one single, solitary thing to benefit the human condition.

You actually lose credibility with statements like that.
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Religion has always been a force of oppression. It was one of the charges against Socrates, believing in the wrong gods.
 
BidenPresident said:
Religion has always been a force of oppression. It was one of the charges against Socrates, believing in the wrong gods.
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I will let other thread participants judge how credible your claim is that religions have never, ever, not one single time, provided any benefit to the human condition.
 
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