Barstool economics

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You DO realize we can still SEE your prior posts on this thread... Don't you?

I never stated or implied that top marginal rates were the same as capital gains. This is simply your idiotic attempt to spin your way out of what you stated earlier.

That said, I do agree that as long as there is a corporate income tax, capital gain tax rate reductions will TEND to stimulate the economy. There are no absolutes when it comes to how changes in taxes effect the economy ditzie.

Yes, and do you realize not one place do I ever indicate eliminating the top marginal income tax, as you claimed I had said? There is no "tend" to it, every time we've ever reduced it, that is precisely what has happened as a result, without fail. I'm not spinning anything, I am not making shit up, it's just a plain old ordinary fact of the matter, when we reduce to top marginal tax rate, the economy always prospers.

So your attempt to 'get back on the topic' is to deliver a paragraph ranting about something that is completely inconsequential to the topic. I corrected you because you were WRONG. Now you spent the above paragraph again trying to spin your way out of your moronic statement. It is not 'semantics'... it is FACT.

No, you corrected me because you misinterpreted my usage of the word "securities" when I was talking about "secure investment" and I clarified what I meant to say, and you have persisted with the argument. Like I said, if you have some need to be right, so be it... has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. Again, no spin.. just fact. People are investing in secure things, even when the return is minimal, they don't care... because they are unsure of things with this administration in power.

Again... you are pretending that the tbill rates at zero and high gold prices are due to Obama getting elected. That is quiet simply ABSURD

Call it whatever you like, the fact remains t-bill rates are at zero and gold price is through the roof... which can only mean one thing, right? I mean, if everyone were selling gold and t-bills, the price would be dropping, correct? But they obviously aren't doing that, are they? No, they aren't! Whatever theory you may have for it, is fine, but I think it's because this administration has sent some alarming and distressing messages to the business/corporate sector, and investors just don't trust what's coming down the pike.

People are concerned right now due to the lack of CREDIT. Which is causing them to 'not move forward' with projects and plans.

So what do you propose we do? Have government mandate they make loans to people who don't qualify for them? Seems we've been down that road before, haven't we? Look, if the economy turns around, and people start investing again, creating new jobs, stimulating the economy with investment capital, the banks will again start lending money and all will be well with the world. You are focused on one isolated problem that is only a problem because the economy is in the crapper right now.

So to you... gold doesn't traditionally 'lose money'???? Tell that to those that held gold throughout the 1990's. Like every other asset category... Gold most certainly CAN lose value.

No, gold traditionally doesn't lose money over the long haul. Most people with an ounce of fucking common sense, knows that. I didn't say that gold NEVER loses money... please stop trying to contort my words into things I haven't said, it's annoying as piss!

also... you did not answer my question... If those smart wealthy investors were pulling their money out of the market when they found out that 'da evilz Obama was going to get elected'.... AND they are not investing today because 'they are a scared of future changes by the government'.... then WHY dear ditzie did the market rebound from March until now?

Do explain that phenomenon to us ditzie....

Well, we've dumped about a trillion dollars into the economy in various forms, the treasury is printing money as fast as the presses will run, and that is going into the economy... so, I think all that influx of government money is having some slight effect on the market... plus the fact that investors want to be optimistic... they want to believe we've turned the corner and things are better now... so yes, we are seeing a little more market activity... but real growth? Not really! Nothing to create new jobs or stimulate expansion of business is happening right now. The market is always going to go up and down, people will invest in a terrible market on the chance things may improve and they make a fortune... it is not always a good (or reasonable) indicator of the economy.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

No, The Bear is essentially correct. The top third of income earners in this nation control over 90% of the wealth and earnings. They should therefore pay 90% of the taxes on government services. That's why progressive taxation is the only fair form of taxation. In general, our progressive taxation system reflects this, making it one of the fairest systems of taxation in the world. It's when you get above the top 5% of income earners, the very wealthy that you begin to see the income disparity in taxation.

That was nice but it doesn't explain the comment of "the poor pay taxes on what they don't have."!!

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Yes, and do you realize not one place do I ever indicate eliminating the top marginal income tax, as you claimed I had said? There is no "tend" to it, every time we've ever reduced it, that is precisely what has happened as a result, without fail. I'm not spinning anything, I am not making shit up, it's just a plain old ordinary fact of the matter, when we reduce to top marginal tax rate, the economy always prospers.

Poor ditzie.... I did not state that you had suggested taking the top marginal rate to zero. I said that is what your comment IMPLIED given your 'it always works' line of bullshit. Again, as I pointed out to you moron... it DID NOT work for Bush. Because there is a point, which you finally acknowledged, where further cuts in the top rate actually HURT the economy in the long run. Which is precisely what the Bush cuts did... because he did not have corresponding spending cuts to support the income tax cuts. That point is what Laffer was referring to.

No, you corrected me because you misinterpreted my usage of the word "securities" when I was talking about "secure investment" and I clarified what I meant to say, and you have persisted with the argument. Like I said, if you have some need to be right, so be it... has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. Again, no spin.. just fact. People are investing in secure things, even when the return is minimal, they don't care... because they are unsure of things with this administration in power.

No poor ditzie... I did not misinterpret you. I asked you clearly what you meant. Then you explained to us that "Securities... secure investments, treasury bonds, gold. "

Which is 100% FALSE. There was no misinterpretation.... you meant that securities= secure (or safe) investments. I know you are embarassed, but that is the FACT dear ditzie.

AGAIN... you keep stating that people are investing in gold and tbills/bonds because of Obama's admin... yet you continue to fail to address how it is that the stock market has gone up so much since March if indeed people are selling the market because of their fear of the admin. Why is that dear lil ditzie?

Call it whatever you like, the fact remains t-bill rates are at zero and gold price is through the roof... which can only mean one thing, right? I mean, if everyone were selling gold and t-bills, the price would be dropping, correct? But they obviously aren't doing that, are they? No, they aren't! Whatever theory you may have for it, is fine, but I think it's because this administration has sent some alarming and distressing messages to the business/corporate sector, and investors just don't trust what's coming down the pike.

Yes dear ditzie... you are indeed retarded when it comes to the markets. Again dear ditzie... if people were afraid of the admin... why is the stock market ALSO going up??? Bottom line, you pretended the downturn in the stock market was because of peoples fear of Obama... which is absurd. You are an idiot. Plain and simple.

So what do you propose we do? Have government mandate they make loans to people who don't qualify for them? Seems we've been down that road before, haven't we? Look, if the economy turns around, and people start investing again, creating new jobs, stimulating the economy with investment capital, the banks will again start lending money and all will be well with the world. You are focused on one isolated problem that is only a problem because the economy is in the crapper right now.

seriously you are retarded. There are plenty of people with good credit who have had their lines of credit cut. There are plenty of small businesses who rely on credit because their businesses are not fluid in cash flow year round that have seen their credit cut. We are not discussing the unqualified people getting loans ditzie.... we are talking about the OVERALL credit market being tighter than we have seen in over four decades.

No, gold traditionally doesn't lose money over the long haul. Most people with an ounce of fucking common sense, knows that. I didn't say that gold NEVER loses money... please stop trying to contort my words into things I haven't said, it's annoying as piss!

poor ditzie... gold averaged about $600 an ounce in 1980... then it fell... it did not get back to the $600 level until 2006. If you adjust for inflation we are still below those levels.

Gold prices at record highs and rising, and people still buying it! Clearly, investors are putting their money into SECURE assets... things that don't traditionally LOSE money.

you see ditzie... you did say that gold doesn't traditionally lose money. That is false. Like many investments if you hold it for fifty years, that holds true... not likely to lose money in gold over that long a time frame. But like every other investment, when you look at five, ten even fifteen year time frames there are periods where gold, stocks, bonds etc... lose value. In the case of gold... we are almost at a 30 year period from its peak, there were several periods during that time where gold declined for several years, then ralllied.

Gold is considered a safe investment when it comes to being a hedge against the declining dollar and inflation. It is not safe in the terms of 'doesn't traditionally lose money'. If the dollar were to firm up, gold would plummet in value.

Well, we've dumped about a trillion dollars into the economy in various forms, the treasury is printing money as fast as the presses will run, and that is going into the economy... so, I think all that influx of government money is having some slight effect on the market... plus the fact that investors want to be optimistic... they want to believe we've turned the corner and things are better now... so yes, we are seeing a little more market activity... but real growth? Not really! Nothing to create new jobs or stimulate expansion of business is happening right now. The market is always going to go up and down, people will invest in a terrible market on the chance things may improve and they make a fortune... it is not always a good (or reasonable) indicator of the economy.

The above is probably the best you have done at stating something accurate. But it doesn't change the FACT that people ARE investing in the market and not running away from it as you suggested out of some fear of Obama.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Poor ditzie.... I did not state that you had suggested taking the top marginal rate to zero. I said that is what your comment IMPLIED given your 'it always works' line of bullshit. Again, as I pointed out to you moron... it DID NOT work for Bush. Because there is a point, which you finally acknowledged, where further cuts in the top rate actually HURT the economy in the long run. Which is precisely what the Bush cuts did... because he did not have corresponding spending cuts to support the income tax cuts. That point is what Laffer was referring to.

I didn't imply or state that, and this is my point. You have misrepresented what I stated, and I have corrected you twice now. How many times do we have to clarify what I did and did not say, when it is written for everyone to read? Laffer was not referring to 1% or 2% cuts in the top marginal income tax rate, that would actually return the rates to what they were before Clinton raised them in the 90s, when we had the longest period of peacetime prosperity in American history.

No poor ditzie... I did not misinterpret you. I asked you clearly what you meant. Then you explained to us that "Securities... secure investments, treasury bonds, gold. "

And I told you what I meant, and you proceeded to insist you had "gotten" me on something, a technicality, really... but I understand, anything you can "win" against me with... it must be very important to you in your pathetic little life. Yes, you are right and I am wrong, "securities" when talking about investment, means stocks, bonds, mutuals, and all the rest, and I was incorrect to say that "securities" were "secure investments" because they are two different things. Now that you have been given proper credit for correcting my error, can we get back to the TOPIC of the thread, or do you want some more praise from me while I remorse over my incorrect terminology?

Which is 100% FALSE. There was no misinterpretation.... you meant that securities= secure (or safe) investments. I know you are embarassed, but that is the FACT dear ditzie.

No, I am a better judge of what I meant than you are, because you see, I said it and you didn't... so it would stand to reason, since it came from my brain, I would be more inclined to know what I meant than you. But thanks for your incorrect input.

AGAIN... you keep stating that people are investing in gold and tbills/bonds because of Obama's admin... yet you continue to fail to address how it is that the stock market has gone up so much since March if indeed people are selling the market because of their fear of the admin. Why is that dear lil ditzie?

I think I did address how the stock market was going up, apparently you failed to read it. Let me try again... You remember the $785 billion TARP bill that Congress passed last year? Well, a chunk of that money has found its way into the economy, and has stimulated the markets somewhat. This is because some people who invest in the market are Democrat Socialists who want to see Obama succeed, like George Soros... they have invested in the market, and the market (as always) has responded.

This doesn't negate the fact that t-bill interest has dropped to zero, something that hasn't happened too often in history, and gold is at a record high. The reasons for this are simple, more people are buying them! And WHY are they doing this? Certainly not because they expect to make great returns on t-bills and gold in the near future... nope... its because traditional investments are much more risky with a falling dollar and economic uncertainty. This condition exists precisely because of an economic tone-deaf Congress and Socialist Administration.

Yes dear ditzie... you are indeed retarded when it comes to the markets. Again dear ditzie... if people were afraid of the admin... why is the stock market ALSO going up??? Bottom line, you pretended the downturn in the stock market was because of peoples fear of Obama... which is absurd. You are an idiot. Plain and simple.

Again, the stock market will ALWAYS go up if it has bottomed out! There is no other place for it to go but up!

seriously you are retarded. There are plenty of people with good credit who have had their lines of credit cut. There are plenty of small businesses who rely on credit because their businesses are not fluid in cash flow year round that have seen their credit cut. We are not discussing the unqualified people getting loans ditzie.... we are talking about the OVERALL credit market being tighter than we have seen in over four decades.

Which is directly related to a weak, slow, stagnating economy, falling dollar, and continued fear of what this administration might have in store for small business.

poor ditzie... gold averaged about $600 an ounce in 1980... then it fell... it did not get back to the $600 level until 2006. If you adjust for inflation we are still below those levels.

Gold has never been worth zero! It is historically, one of the safest and most stable long-term investments. People who invest in gold and t-bills, are not looking for a return on their investment, they just want their capital protected. They are essentially saying, here... just hold my money, I don't care if I don't get a return, I just want to keep what I have and not lose it!

you see ditzie... you did say that gold doesn't traditionally lose money. That is false. Like many investments if you hold it for fifty years, that holds true... not likely to lose money in gold over that long a time frame. But like every other investment, when you look at five, ten even fifteen year time frames there are periods where gold, stocks, bonds etc... lose value. In the case of gold... we are almost at a 30 year period from its peak, there were several periods during that time where gold declined for several years, then ralllied.

Well, and you just keep on trying to be "right" about something that isn't being debated here! Sorry MORON, you will have to rejoin the debate in progress to make a point! No one is arguing that Gold or T-bills are an attractive investment! They are one of the most UNATTRACTIVE investments, from a returns standpoint, and that is the point you continue to make, but it doesn't refute what I said! In fact, it make the point in a better way than I could make myself! People ARE investing in Gold and T-bills, if they weren't, the interest rates on T-bills would be going up, and gold prices would be going down! Now.... ask yourself, dimwit.... WHY would people be investing in something that has historically shitty returns?

Gold is considered a safe investment when it comes to being a hedge against the declining dollar and inflation. It is not safe in the terms of 'doesn't traditionally lose money'. If the dollar were to firm up, gold would plummet in value.

*sigh* AND THEN INVESTORS WOULD SELL THEIR GOLD AND START INVESTING IN CAPITAL VENTURES AGAIN! WHAT PART OF THIS ARE YOU FAILING TO GRASP?

The above is probably the best you have done at stating something accurate. But it doesn't change the FACT that people ARE investing in the market and not running away from it as you suggested out of some fear of Obama.

Yes, Obamamaniacs like George Soros, Opera Winfrey and Barbara Streisand, ARE investing their wealth into the stock market, and it IS going up.... it couldn't have fallen much further, it was at one of the lowest points in the past century! This is NOT an indicator of the ECONOMY! Can you not get that through your thick cranium? The market went UP in the midst of the Great Depression! It didn't mean the depression was suddenly over!

Points I have made that you have failed to address or refute...
1.) Investors are NOT investing in expansion and capitalist growth.
2.) No investing in capitalist venture means no jobs are being created!
3.) Investors ARE investing in T-bills and Gold!
4.) Lack of consumer confidence is the main reason for all of this!
5.) The Obama Administration has done nothing to help, and indicated it planed to hurt!

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I didn't imply or state that, and this is my point. You have misrepresented what I stated, and I have corrected you twice now. How many times do we have to clarify what I did and did not say, when it is written for everyone to read? Laffer was not referring to 1% or 2% cuts in the top marginal income tax rate, that would actually return the rates to what they were before Clinton raised them in the 90s, when we had the longest period of peacetime prosperity in American history.

you are an idiot... though you are correct... it is very clear that you said exactly what I stated. Everyone can see that and can also see you trying to spin your way out of it.

And I told you what I meant, and you proceeded to insist you had "gotten" me on something, a technicality, really... but I understand, anything you can "win" against me with... it must be very important to you in your pathetic little life. Yes, you are right and I am wrong, "securities" when talking about investment, means stocks, bonds, mutuals, and all the rest, and I was incorrect to say that "securities" were "secure investments" because they are two different things. Now that you have been given proper credit for correcting my error, can we get back to the TOPIC of the thread, or do you want some more praise from me while I remorse over my incorrect terminology?

See ditzie... that wasn't too hard now was it? Rather than your idiotic attempts to spin away, just admitting you were wrong was quite simple by comparison.

I think I did address how the stock market was going up, apparently you failed to read it. Let me try again... You remember the $785 billion TARP bill that Congress passed last year? Well, a chunk of that money has found its way into the economy, and has stimulated the markets somewhat. This is because some people who invest in the market are Democrat Socialists who want to see Obama succeed, like George Soros... they have invested in the market, and the market (as always) has responded.

LMAO... seriously... you are going to continue with your stupidity? Now you are suggesting that it is democratic socialists that are the causing the market to go up? While the TARP money did stop the freefall, the ONLY way the stock market goes up is if there is more money coming INTO the market than going OUT of it. That is the ONLY way. That means your idiotic theory that investors are selling because of fear of Obama is nothing less than your idiocy.

This doesn't negate the fact that t-bill interest has dropped to zero, something that hasn't happened too often in history, and gold is at a record high. The reasons for this are simple, more people are buying them! And WHY are they doing this? Certainly not because they expect to make great returns on t-bills and gold in the near future... nope... its because traditional investments are much more risky with a falling dollar and economic uncertainty. This condition exists precisely because of an economic tone-deaf Congress and Socialist Administration.

Again you moron... I know that tbills and gold have gone up in value. But AGAIN dear ditzie... the market is up over 50% from its bottom in March. Gold is up about 35%. All with the falling dollar dear little ditzie.

Again, the stock market will ALWAYS go up if it has bottomed out! There is no other place for it to go but up!

LMAO... tell that to the Japanese Ditzie. That said... If YOUR theory that people are selling the market because they fear the Obama man.... then the market would NOT BE GOING UP you fucking moron.

Gold has never been worth zero! It is historically, one of the safest and most stable long-term investments. People who invest in gold and t-bills, are not looking for a return on their investment, they just want their capital protected. They are essentially saying, here... just hold my money, I don't care if I don't get a return, I just want to keep what I have and not lose it!

LMAO.... no one said gold was worth zero you idiot. Again, gold, like other commodities and like equities goes up and down in value. Again... you say they invest for the long term because they want their capital protected. For the SHORT term, that is correct, but for the LONG term it is not.

Well, and you just keep on trying to be "right" about something that isn't being debated here! Sorry MORON, you will have to rejoin the debate in progress to make a point! No one is arguing that Gold or T-bills are an attractive investment! They are one of the most UNATTRACTIVE investments, from a returns standpoint, and that is the point you continue to make, but it doesn't refute what I said! In fact, it make the point in a better way than I could make myself! People ARE investing in Gold and T-bills, if they weren't, the interest rates on T-bills would be going up, and gold prices would be going down! Now.... ask yourself, dimwit.... WHY would people be investing in something that has historically shitty returns?

Gold can be a great investment and provide a great return ditzie. THAT is why people invest in it. Not because they think their money will be safe. That is why you are wrong yet again. It is not because they fear the Obama man, it is because for 50 years our government has knocked up our debt to the point it is at today. It is because of the the fact that inflation is likely to rear its head. INVESTORS invest in the strength of the market. No matter where the strength is. Right now the strongest sectors have been Emerging markets, precious metals and internet stocks. But the first two are now sliding out of the top spots.

Just do us all a favor and admit you are full of shit with your 'investors started selling when Obama was elected'

Yes, Obamamaniacs like George Soros, Opera Winfrey and Barbara Streisand, ARE investing their wealth into the stock market, and it IS going up.... it couldn't have fallen much further, it was at one of the lowest points in the past century! This is NOT an indicator of the ECONOMY! Can you not get that through your thick cranium? The market went UP in the midst of the Great Depression! It didn't mean the depression was suddenly over!

Ok ditzie... this is simply moronic. Pretending that it is Soros, Winfrey etc... that are the reason the market is going up? Do you not see that idiotic statements like that are why people mock you so much?

As for your comment on the market... you are again showing how much of a moron you are. It was not anywhere near the lowest point in the past century. I know I know... you meant last decade right? I simply misinterpreted what you said. When you said century you were of course referring to ditzie world definitions where century actually means decade... right????

Also you moron... I never said the market was an indicator of the economy. This whole thing started with your MORONIC assertion that people started bailing on the market due to Obama getting elected. When that was shown in a nice bright light for all its stupidity, then you pretended wealthy Obama followers were the cause of the rebound. It is that STUPIDITY that I called you on.

Points I have made that you have failed to address or refute...
1.) Investors are NOT investing in expansion and capitalist growth.
2.) No investing in capitalist venture means no jobs are being created!
3.) Investors ARE investing in T-bills and Gold!
4.) Lack of consumer confidence is the main reason for all of this!
5.) The Obama Administration has done nothing to help, and indicated it planed to hurt!

You truly are an idiot... I have addressed all of those.

1) Credit market... see my previous posts on this
2) Again, tied to the lack of credit...
3) Yes and they are also investing in the equity markets
4) Consumer confidence is a lagging indicator and it is actually on the rise you moron
5) I would not go so far as to say they have done nothing to help, but I do agree that the health care plan is not in our long term interests. That said, your assertions that people are fleeing the market due to Obama is still nothing short of absurd.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

you are an idiot... though you are correct... it is very clear that you said exactly what I stated. Everyone can see that and can also see you trying to spin your way out of it.

I am not spinning when I correct you! You erroneously stated that I am claiming we should decrease top marginal tax rates to zero, and I have not said or implied such a thing. Everyone can see that!

See ditzie... that wasn't too hard now was it? Rather than your idiotic attempts to spin away, just admitting you were wrong was quite simple by comparison.

No, and it wasn't hard the first time I said it either! I haven't tried to spin away from a goddamn thing, you keep saying that, but it's just not the case. I used a word incorrectly, and I admitted you misunderstood my intended meaning. Still, you seem to want more! I don't know what you expect? You want me to beg your forgiveness for saying something you interpreted the wrong way? I don't get it! What the fuck does this have to do with what we are discussing here? It seems it's just another opportunity you are going to take, to wag your e-penis in my face and proclaim yourself "victorious" over me... so be it! You haven't even started to address the point of the thread!

LMAO... seriously... you are going to continue with your stupidity? Now you are suggesting that it is democratic socialists that are the causing the market to go up? While the TARP money did stop the freefall, the ONLY way the stock market goes up is if there is more money coming INTO the market than going OUT of it. That is the ONLY way. That means your idiotic theory that investors are selling because of fear of Obama is nothing less than your idiocy.

LMAO... You really have a problem with reading comprehension... why the fuck don't you STOP telling me what I am "suggesting" and stick to what the fuck I actually POST?

Investors CAN'T sell something they already sold in January! There is indeed money coming into the market, not much more money could have left the market! And YES, I think it had a LOT to do with the election of an anti-capitalist socialist big-government democrat to the White House. You have offered NOTHING to refute that point, or even suggest why it might be inaccurate. Instead, you've paraded around acting like a jerk over semantics and word usage, and called me idiot a bunch of times... but, substantive debate? Nadda!

Again you moron... I know that tbills and gold have gone up in value. But AGAIN dear ditzie... the market is up over 50% from its bottom in March. Gold is up about 35%. All with the falling dollar dear little ditzie.

And AGAIN... IF Gold is up and t-bill interest is down, this can only mean one thing.... People are buying T-bills and Gold. I'm not sure what your point is, but MY point is, people with money are putting their money in secure investments, and not taking risks on capitalism.

LMAO... tell that to the Japanese Ditzie. That said... If YOUR theory that people are selling the market because they fear the Obama man.... then the market would NOT BE GOING UP you fucking moron.

LMAO... AGAIN FOR THE BRAIN DEAD NITWIT.... People who bailed on the market in January, can't sell their stocks and leave the market! Guess why?? Because they already DID IT! The market is going up because it couldn't go down anymore!

LMAO.... no one said gold was worth zero you idiot. Again, gold, like other commodities and like equities goes up and down in value. Again... you say they invest for the long term because they want their capital protected. For the SHORT term, that is correct, but for the LONG term it is not.

It's correct long or short term, Gold is a stable consistent secure asset in uncertain times, it always has been, always will be. I didn't say anything about investing long term to protect their assets... you have a real fundamental problem with putting words into the mouth of others, don't you? Maybe I wouldn't sound so fucking idiotic if you'd pay attention to what I am typing, and not what you perceive me to be typing?

Gold can be a great investment and provide a great return ditzie. THAT is why people invest in it. Not because they think their money will be safe. That is why you are wrong yet again. It is not because they fear the Obama man, it is because for 50 years our government has knocked up our debt to the point it is at today. It is because of the the fact that inflation is likely to rear its head. INVESTORS invest in the strength of the market. No matter where the strength is. Right now the strongest sectors have been Emerging markets, precious metals and internet stocks. But the first two are now sliding out of the top spots.

I actually have about $750k in gold assets, so I don't need education from you on the gold market, but thanks for that anyway. Gold is a good investment if you want something that will remain stable or increase in value when the dollar is weak or losing value. That is why so many are investing in gold. You are trying to oversimplify my point, and pretend I have said something I did not say again... I never said that the only reason anyone is investing in gold is because they distrust Obama! MANY investors are UNCERTAIN (note the fucking words I actually used here) of the ECONOMY.... THEREFORE, they are choosing to invest their money in SECURE assets, LIKE GOLD! Not everyone, not ALL investors... I never said that.... let's keep it straight!

Now where this is a problem, is these people who are investing heavily in gold and t-bills (and we know they are because t-bill rates are dropping, gold going higher), are NOT investing in capitalist ventures.... Perhaps, just PERHAPS... they might do that, if there were some incentive or reason for them to? Don't know this, not sure of it, can't prove it... but it would stand to reason, if you give a man an opportunity to make more money doing something besides investing in T-bills, he probably would.

Just do us all a favor and admit you are full of shit with your 'investors started selling when Obama was elected'

They actually started selling a few months before he was elected. When it became apparent he would be elected. And they haven't returned. Most of their money is going into T-bills and Gold, because those are SECURE assets in times of uncertainty. How many times do we have to go over this?

Ok ditzie... this is simply moronic. Pretending that it is Soros, Winfrey etc... that are the reason the market is going up? Do you not see that idiotic statements like that are why people mock you so much?

Gee... Super, can you point out to me where I said that Soros and Winfrey were the reason the market was going up? I don't fucking think that is what I said! Nope... it's NOT what I said at all! It's what you again falsely CLAIM was said (or inferred) by me.

As for your comment on the market... you are again showing how much of a moron you are. It was not anywhere near the lowest point in the past century. I know I know... you meant last decade right? I simply misinterpreted what you said. When you said century you were of course referring to ditzie world definitions where century actually means decade... right????

No, the market actually had one of it's largest drops in the last century. Maybe you missed it, all the news channels reported on it... the presidential candidate for the democrats at the time, said it was the worst economy since the Great Depression.

Also you moron... I never said the market was an indicator of the economy. This whole thing started with your MORONIC assertion that people started bailing on the market due to Obama getting elected. When that was shown in a nice bright light for all its stupidity, then you pretended wealthy Obama followers were the cause of the rebound. It is that STUPIDITY that I called you on.

You keep insisting that the markets going up means investors are confident with the economy again, and that isn't the case. Investors DID start bailing on the markets when it became obvious an anti-capitalist admin was headed to the white house. You've shown absolutely NOTHING to refute that, and frankly, you can't. It's an opinion shared by myself and others, including that "idiot moron" Charles Krauthammer!

You truly are an idiot....

And you are truly going on the ignore list, since you can't seem to make a point or present anything tangible in the debate, or even post your stupidity without calling me names every other breath. Learn to talk to people rationally, okay?

 

[apple0154]

A factor that has to be considered when talking about consumer spending is many consumers over-spent during the previous years. It wasn't just houses. From new cars to appliances to plazma TVs the things that are normally replaced on an on-going basis have been replaced. Economic uncertainty coupled with the fact most large ticket items have already been purchased consumers can sit back and wait a while.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I am not spinning when I correct you! You erroneously stated that I am claiming we should decrease top marginal tax rates to zero, and I have not said or implied such a thing. Everyone can see that!

Go back and re-read this thread ditzie... I did not say 'you said it should go to zero'... I said BY YOUR LOGIC of 'dropping the top rate has always worked' as some sort of justification that it will continue to work is erroneous. Not to mention that it DID NOT WORK when Bush did it recently. A point you cannot seem to grasp. All we got was the SHORT TERM burst.

No, and it wasn't hard the first time I said it either! I haven't tried to spin away from a goddamn thing, you keep saying that, but it's just not the case. I used a word incorrectly, and I admitted you misunderstood my intended meaning. Still, you seem to want more! I don't know what you expect? You want me to beg your forgiveness for saying something you interpreted the wrong way? I don't get it! What the fuck does this have to do with what we are discussing here? It seems it's just another opportunity you are going to take, to wag your e-penis in my face and proclaim yourself "victorious" over me... so be it! You haven't even started to address the point of the thread!

See ditzie... you are STILL trying to spin. I did not 'misunderstand you. I asked you what you meant. You stated what you meant. I then stated you were WRONG. There was no misunderstanding ditzie.

LMAO... You really have a problem with reading comprehension... why the fuck don't you STOP telling me what I am "suggesting" and stick to what the fuck I actually POST?

Poor ditzie... when I use DIRECT quotes from you, it is not 'suggesting' what you said. It is QUOTING what you said.

Investors CAN'T sell something they already sold in January! There is indeed money coming into the market, not much more money could have left the market! And YES, I think it had a LOT to do with the election of an anti-capitalist socialist big-government democrat to the White House. You have offered NOTHING to refute that point, or even suggest why it might be inaccurate. Instead, you've paraded around acting like a jerk over semantics and word usage, and called me idiot a bunch of times... but, substantive debate? Nadda!

My god you are indeed an idiot. As long as the market is above zero ditzie... it can go down further. Tell us your rationale behind 'not much more money could have left the market'.

I have refuted your 'people left the market because of Obama' time and again. If they left because of Obama, they would not have come back into the market. The left the market because they were scared of the financial markets imploding further. THAT is why they left ditzie. It was not because of Obama, but rather (as I ALREADY STATED) due to the removal of Glass Steagall and the housing/asset bubble created by the insanely low interest rates from 2001-2005.

And AGAIN... IF Gold is up and t-bill interest is down, this can only mean one thing.... People are buying T-bills and Gold. I'm not sure what your point is, but MY point is, people with money are putting their money in secure investments, and not taking risks on capitalism.

So now gold and t bills are not part of capitalism? What do you think those tbills/bonds fund? Again, while people ARE putting their money into gold and treasuries, they ARE ALSO PUTTING IT INTO THE STOCK MARKET. You seem to be of the impression that because they are putting money in gold and treasuries that somehow justifies your moronic 'they left the stock market because of Obama' comment.


[

LMAO... AGAIN FOR THE BRAIN DEAD NITWIT.... People who bailed on the market in January, can't sell their stocks and leave the market! Guess why?? Because they already DID IT! The market is going up because it couldn't go down anymore!

Please ditzie... again... do tell us your rationale for 'the market could not go down anymore'... we could all use another laugh at your expense.

They actually started selling a few months before he was elected. When it became apparent he would be elected. And they haven't returned. Most of their money is going into T-bills and Gold, because those are SECURE assets in times of uncertainty. How many times do we have to go over this?

See... there you go again... 'they left because of Obama and haven't returned'. Show us your evidence that they haven't returned ditzie.

You are 100% full of shit ditzie.

Gee... Super, can you point out to me where I said that Soros and Winfrey were the reason the market was going up? I don't fucking think that is what I said! Nope... it's NOT what I said at all! It's what you again falsely CLAIM was said (or inferred) by me.

Gee ditzie... again... we can STILL SEE your previous posts.... so how about here...

Yes, Obamamaniacs like George Soros, Opera Winfrey and Barbara Streisand, ARE investing their wealth into the stock market, and it IS going up.... it couldn't have fallen much further, it was at one of the lowest points in the past century!

No, the market actually had one of it's largest drops in the last century. Maybe you missed it, all the news channels reported on it... the presidential candidate for the democrats at the time, said it was the worst economy since the Great Depression.

Again with the ditzie spin. You stated...

.... it couldn't have fallen much further, it was at one of the lowest points in the past century!

see... now you are trying to pretend that you said it was one of the largest drops in the last century (which is correct). But that is not what you originally stated... was it ditzie????

That said... even with it being one of the largest drops... that does not change the fact that it could have fallen further. The reason it didn't dear ditzie is that the fear of the financial markets continuing to implode subsided.

You keep insisting that the markets going up means investors are confident with the economy again, and that isn't the case. Investors DID start bailing on the markets when it became obvious an anti-capitalist admin was headed to the white house. You've shown absolutely NOTHING to refute that, and frankly, you can't. It's an opinion shared by myself and others, including that "idiot moron" Charles Krauthammer!

No dear lil ditzie... I stated the market going up is a sign that your comment of 'they are leaving the market because of da evilz Obamaman' was moronic.

And you are truly going on the ignore list, since you can't seem to make a point or present anything tangible in the debate, or even post your stupidity without calling me names every other breath. Learn to talk to people rationally, okay?

run and hide ditzie... run and hide... just remember... when you are skulking in that dark lil corner... 1/3 +1/3 +1/3 is EXACTLY EQUAL TO ONE.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Go back and re-read this thread ditzie... I did not say 'you said it should go to zero'... I said BY YOUR LOGIC of 'dropping the top rate has always worked' as some sort of justification that it will continue to work is erroneous. Not to mention that it DID NOT WORK when Bush did it recently. A point you cannot seem to grasp. All we got was the SHORT TERM burst.

The problem is, my LOGIC doesn't say that, I didn't say that, I didn't infer that! I clearly acknowledged the "Laffer Effect" and admitted it can't be lowered to zero, so there is my LOGIC... exactly the same as YOUR LOGIC...


Bush dropped the top marginal rate to 35% from 39%, but it had been raised from a low of 28% under Bush Sr. So we still haven't gotten back to what we had under Clinton and Bush Sr. Also, the Bush tax cuts were mostly Keynesian in nature, they largely targeted the middle class and upper middle class incomes, or the "demand" side, not the "supply" side as Reagan advocated. Supply side policy is what spurs economic growth and prosperity, and this is why lowering the top marginal rates always results in stimulating the economy.

As long as the market is above zero ditzie... it can go down further. Tell us your rationale behind 'not much more money could have left the market'.

Assuming you know the difference between the words "much" and "any", it is apparent that I never said the market couldn't lose ANY more money. Generally speaking, the market bottomed out... not completely, it never bottoms out completely, we put safeguards in place after the Great Depression, and it makes this virtually impossible now, but the market did indeed bottom out, meaning MANY investors left the market.

See... there you go again... 'they left because of Obama and haven't returned'. Show us your evidence that they haven't returned ditzie.

Well, the evidence is, the market is not back up to where it was before Obama was elected! T-bill interest is at zero, it wasn't before Obama was elected... Gold prices are higher than before Obama was elected... All of these mean something!

You keep yammering about the market going back up, as if that means the economy has turned the corner, and that simply isn't the case. It doesn't seem to occur to you, many investors are DEMOCRATS, and want to see this administration succeed and not fail... so it would stand to reason, these DEMOCRAT investors are putting all their money and resources into the market, so it goes up... and morons like you, think the economy is rebounding and so you start spending money again! I predict the gains in the market we are presently seeing, are going to be short-lived. I base this on the fact that no jobs are being created and no real capitalist growth is happening to sustain the market growth. It's enough smoke and mirrors to fool idiots like yourself, and Onzies... that's about it!

 

[tinfoil]

The rich pay so much because they're making ridiculous amounts. Yeah, they're "making" more money, but where do you think they got that money from?

Because the marginal tax rate is so much lower than in the 70's, money that would have gone into improving the business or raising middle class salaries has all gone to raising rich peoples salaries, with no discernible productivity improvement as a result.

The rich do not deserve to be rich. The middle class DESERVES a decent lifestyle. The right has transferred wealth in this country from the deserving to the undeserving, and it's disgusting.

Can you explain how this would work?
"money that would have gone into improving the business or raising middle class salaries"

This should be amusing

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

THIS....

The problem is, my LOGIC doesn't say that, I didn't say that, I didn't infer that! I clearly acknowledged the "Laffer Effect" and admitted it can't be lowered to zero, so there is my LOGIC... exactly the same as YOUR LOGIC...

and THIS....

....and this is why lowering the top marginal rates always results in stimulating the economy.

CONTRADICT EACH OTHER. You acknowledge the laffer curve and then proceed to state lowering the top marginal rates ALWAYS result in stimulating the economy.

Assuming you know the difference between the words "much" and "any", it is apparent that I never said the market couldn't lose ANY more money. Generally speaking, the market bottomed out... not completely, it never bottoms out completely, we put safeguards in place after the Great Depression, and it makes this virtually impossible now, but the market did indeed bottom out, meaning MANY investors left the market.

what 'safeguards' are in place that would have prevented the Dow from going to 1000 ditzie?

Again... YES, they left the market... but NOT for the reasons you keep stating (ie that they knew Obama was going to be elected). After the debacle of Bush... the general opinion was that regardless of who won, things would likely improve. It was not one of 'oh my God Obama is going to kill the economy'. The economy was ALREADY toast for the reasons that have been spelled out many times before.

Well, the evidence is, the market is not back up to where it was before Obama was elected! T-bill interest is at zero, it wasn't before Obama was elected... Gold prices are higher than before Obama was elected... All of these mean something!

LMAO... you truly are grasping at straws.

1) The Dow is about 20% higher than when Obama was elected. the S&P is about 15% higher. From the time he actually took office, they are up roughly the same (slightly higher, but not by much)

2) The Fed Funds rate went to 0 to 0.25 in December of last year... tbills are 90 day securities. Hence it takes about 90 days to work into the average tbill rate. NEW issues went immediately down to the 0 to 0.25% range.

3) You are hung up on Gold prices. Yes, people are investing in Gold. Thanks. We know that. pretending the price of gold is a reflection on Obama being elected is fucking ignorant.

You keep yammering about the market going back up, as if that means the economy has turned the corner,

No dipshit... AGAIN I did not state the market going up meant the economy has turned the corner. I said the stock market going up DIRECTLY REFUTES your idiocy that 'investors left the market because of OBAMA being ELECTED'

It doesn't seem to occur to you, many investors are DEMOCRATS, and want to see this administration succeed and not fail... so it would stand to reason, these DEMOCRAT investors are putting all their money and resources into the market, so it goes up... and morons like you, think the economy is rebounding and so you start spending money again! I predict the gains in the market we are presently seeing, are going to be short-lived. I base this on the fact that no jobs are being created and no real capitalist growth is happening to sustain the market growth. It's enough smoke and mirrors to fool idiots like yourself, and Onzies... that's about it!

The above is the most ignorant portion of your posts. To suggest that people are buying stocks because they want Obama to look good? Give me a fucking break.

If you actually paid attention, you would know that I do think we will see a double dip to this recession. The difference between us ditzie is I don't assign the fact that people got in and out of the market due to whether or not they were scared of Obama or liked Obama.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

CONTRADICT EACH OTHER. You acknowledge the laffer curve and then proceed to state lowering the top marginal rates ALWAYS result in stimulating the economy.

No, the statements do not contradict each other. Read carefully!

lowering the top marginal rates always results in stimulating the economy

This is a true statement of fact based on historical data of what has happened in America, whenever we have lowered the top marginal rates! I do not say anything about Laffer, or suggest, infer, imply, or state anything about lowering it to ZERO!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

To suggest that people are buying stocks because they want Obama to look good? Give me a fucking break.

Again, try real hard to stick to what I posted and not what you think I "suggested." Okay? Most investors are not interested in politics, they are interested in making money and not losing money. This comes first and foremost, and I understand that. You make it sound as if I think investors are politically motivated across the board, and that isn't what I suggested or implied. The current administration has made no secret about what it favors and plans to do, with regard to capitalist enterprise. If you don't realize that or comprehend that, you are a fool. Smart Money is going into secure assets, it doesn't matter if the interest is non-existent... anything is better than investing in the US Dollar at this point. That is what drove the market down, and what has brought it back up slightly, has been an influx of speculative investing, for one, people looking for a bargain... and big money from the left, who basically have the resources of the US Treasury at their disposal, let's just be honest... that IS happening!

If you actually paid attention, you would know that I do think we will see a double dip to this recession. The difference between us ditzie is I don't assign the fact that people got in and out of the market due to whether or not they were scared of Obama or liked Obama.

I don't think that either! Perhaps you inferred a "suggestion" again.... you are really good at doing that! Like I said, INVESTORS are interested in making money and not losing it! The market going up, is because The Collective Left in America has a vested interest in the market going up! This is artificial market stimulation, paid for by our US Tax dollars! You are apparently too blind or ignorant to see that!

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

No, the statements do not contradict each other. Read carefully!

lowering the top marginal rates always results in stimulating the economy

This is a true statement of fact based on historical data of what has happened in America, whenever we have lowered the top marginal rates! I do not say anything about Laffer, or suggest, infer, imply, or state anything about lowering it to ZERO!

MORON... if lowering the top marginal rate ALWAYS results in stimulating the economy, then WHY would you NOT lower it to zero... if lowering if ALWAYS stimulates, then it would make sense to continually lower it until it hit zero.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

MORON... if lowering the top marginal rate ALWAYS results in stimulating the economy, then WHY would you NOT lower it to zero... if lowering if ALWAYS stimulates, then it would make sense to continually lower it until it hit zero.

Because, as Laffer suggests, lowering it past a certain point is counterproductive! So, NO... it doesn't make sense at all to do that! This is why I didn't suggest that we should do that! AND, that is why I am puzzled as to why you keep thinking I have suggested something absurd? Can you fucking explain that to me?

 

[Socrtease]

Wowzers! I have now read this entire thread. Me thinks SF's head must hurt from running it into the wall of Ditz over and over and over again. I was certain Ditz was never going to admit that securities did not mean secure investments. I had a great SEC joke all lined up but after about 2 pages he realized he was wrong. Other than that, thanks for the entertainment. What I like best was it looked like SF was actually having to argue in defense of Obama which I am sure made his brain hurt alot.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Wowzers! I have now read this entire thread. Me thinks SF's head must hurt from running it into the wall of Ditz over and over and over again. I was certain Ditz was never going to admit that securities did not mean secure investments. I had a great SEC joke all lined up but after about 2 pages he realized he was wrong. Other than that, thanks for the entertainment. What I like best was it looked like SF was actually having to argue in defense of Obama which I am sure made his brain hurt alot.

I have no problem at all arguing on behalf of Obama if someone is posting pure crap like ditzie was.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

One has to admire dixies commitment to his own delusionary thoughts. He's kind of heroic in a way. We can give him an occasional "That a boy, champ!".

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I have no problem at all arguing on behalf of Obama if someone is posting pure crap like ditzie was.

I've not posted anything but the truth. You are living in denial!

The markets dropped like a rock because investors feared an anti-capitalist administration. Traditionally secure investments continue to be the preferred place for investors to put their money, as evidenced by the T-bill interest rates and gold prices. Increases in the market since January are largely due to the influx of TARP money, all the bailouts, and people looking for a bargain. No jobs are being created, no capitalist ventures are 'growing' the economy, and the largely artificial rise in the markets will be short-lived as a result.

You can disagree with this analysis, you can nit pick my usage of certain words, and you can twist my logic into things I simply never said, but what I have articulated is the truth and has not been refuted.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I've not posted anything but the truth. You are living in denial!

The markets dropped like a rock because investors feared an anti-capitalist administration. Traditionally secure investments continue to be the preferred place for investors to put their money, as evidenced by the T-bill interest rates and gold prices. Increases in the market since January are largely due to the influx of TARP money, all the bailouts, and people looking for a bargain. No jobs are being created, no capitalist ventures are 'growing' the economy, and the largely artificial rise in the markets will be short-lived as a result.

You can disagree with this analysis, you can nit pick my usage of certain words, and you can twist my logic into things I simply never said, but what I have articulated is the truth and has not been refuted.

In that ditzie dream world you live in.... you are the dear leader aren't you?

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