Before NeoCons take their victory lap

[Cypress]

no one's taking any victory laps, not at least until the Republicans win the 2008 elections, then victory will be achievable. Yes their is a delicate balance being juggled by General Petraeus, but cutting the funds and troops from underneath him as the dims have pledged will surely result in America's defeat.

Does paying sunni insurgents (who had formerly been killing americans) with money and guns to go kill foreign fighters, strike you as a viable and sustainable policy in Iraq?

It doesn't to me. I think that they are taking our money and our weapons, out of convenience. To serve their own agenda. Not to serve your and George Bush's agenda. They could turn those guns on us, or the Baghdad government whenever their agenda changes.

 

[Battleborne]

Of course...........

no one's taking any victory laps, not at least until the Republicans win the 2008 elections, then victory will be achievable. Yes their is a delicate balance being juggled by General Petraeus, but cutting the funds and troops from underneath him as the dims have pledged will surely result in America's defeat.

the faces may have changed(well except for Kennedy and crowd) but this is dejavue...VN all over again...same tactics...Jane(Hanoi) Fonda the mother of 'Code Pink' protest them there politicals threaten to post their phone numbers ...held by DC hookers, in all MSN...bet your boots the cash flow comes to a grind...politics sucks big time! This was a big tactic used by the KGB...still seems to work today!

 

[WRL]

Of course they are going to serve their agenda's, we don't own Iraq, and we want them to build the structures of power so they can self govern. Gen. Petraeus wrote the Army's counterinsurgency manual, he's in the best job for himself, look at the amazing progress he's made in six short months...

 

[evince]

I want all the facts reported. The facts on the ground in Iraq right now are positive as violence has dropped. However that doesn't mean we've won or that our work is complete. The attacks and violence could start up again at any time.

IMO, it seems Cypress is more concerned with "Neo-Cons" declaring "victory" than what is taking place and needs to be done.

My loyalty? I admit I have loyalty to my family, good friends, USC football and the U.S.A. Feel free to believe that loyalty is misplaced.

I have known Cy for years. He wants this country to do well. The problem is many of us here KNEW this policy was going to end in disastor before it was undertaken. A little bit of good news and your and your fellow neocon worshipers are telling us how wrong we were. What Cy did here was post FACTS on the ground that may point out that things are not working as effectively as claimed these last couple of weeks. Things may just re explode like the Historians, international affairs, Military and middle east experts knew they would from beore the war. Bush and his neocon cronies have taken us into a hornets nest which has only wasted the blood of our bravest, squandered our treasue , decimated our international reputation and made us less safe. We are tired of this bullshit of being accused of not caring about our country because we bring in all the facts , even the ones you find uncomfortable.

You want to act like an adult? Next time dont call people traitors for briging up facts.

 

[cawacko]

I have known Cy for years. He wants this country to do well. The problem is many of us here KNEW this policy was going to end in disastor before it was undertaken. A little bit of good news and your and your fellow neocon worshipers are telling us how wrong we were. What Cy did here was post FACTS on the ground that may point out that things are not working as effectively as claimed these last couple of weeks. Things may just re explode like the Historians, international affairs, Military and middle east experts knew they would from beore the war. Bush and his neocon cronies have taken us into a hornets nest which has only wasted the blood of our bravest, squandered our treasue , decimated our international reputation and made us less safe. We are tired of this bullshit of being accused of not caring about our country because we bring in all the facts , even the ones you find uncomfortable.

You want to act like an adult? Next time dont call people traitors for briging up facts.

Yes, I have know Cypress a long time as well. In fact he was kind enough to introduce me to this board.

If you want to act like an adult and not just a conspiracy theorist how about get your facts right for a change. I have not called Cypress or anyone else on this board or anywhere else a traitor (as far as U.S. foreign policy goes. i reserve the right to use that term regarding USC football).

First off I haven't told you you were wrong and second I said no one has claimed we have won or our work is done in Iraq. I have said things on the ground could change for the worse. I'm not sure why you refuse to accept that. And I have not heard anyone in the administration say we've now won or that our work is done (since the success on the ground of the surge). Stating the surge is having success on the ground is stating facts. It is not stating whatever you think the "evil neo-cons" are thinking.

I've known Cypress for awhile and as a result may say things to him that I wouldn't to someone I don't know. I'm sorry it offended your hyper partisan self.

 

[gonzojournals]

Does paying sunni insurgents (who had formerly been killing americans) with money and guns to go kill foreign fighters, strike you as a viable and sustainable policy in Iraq?

It doesn't to me. I think that they are taking our money and our weapons, out of convenience. To serve their own agenda. Not to serve your and George Bush's agenda. They could turn those guns on us, or the Baghdad government whenever their agenda changes.

If you knew what a viable and sustainable policy in any country was, you wouldn't be spending your days here on a political forum.

 

[evince]

I haven't heard anyone state that this slow down in violence means victory and our mission is over but its good to see papers like the Times continue to root for our defeat.

You then a post or two later said you thought Cy wanted us to fail.

Telling the whole story is not rooting for our defeat.

 

[cawacko]

You then a post or two later said you thought Cy wanted us to fail.

Telling the whole story is not rooting for our defeat.

Instead of blaming the Times I should have just blamed Cypress like I did in my second post. That was my intention. IMO, the way he framed his headline made it a "neo-con" vs. liberal battle. That is what I called him on.

 

[evince]

There were cons doing some dancing last week.

 

[Cypress]

Desh, it was kind of you to stick up for me.

I have known cawacko for years, and when he says I'm "rooting for american defeat" I don't take it personally. I know how cawacko is, I don't think he means it. There's a lot of things cawacko says to me that I don't take personally (I'm thinking of a late night drunken post cawacko ) Cawackos always been good guy, even if he does occassionally engage in the rhetoric of Michael Savage. lol

Cawacko, I do think this is a neocon issue (its their war), and I do think a lot of people in greater wingnuttia have been prematurely declaring victory. I mean, we don't need to review the history of "mission accomplished!", do we?

 

[Damocles]

One of the factors is the lower number of US troops which is continuing to decline. The first return of a battalion was this week, this trend will likely continue rather than reverse.

 

[Socrtease]

I think people forget that it took us three decades before the Constitution was even written...why do we expect the Iraqis to be democratic in 4 years?

Again the comparison of 18th century America to 21st century Iraq. Give that weak ass comparison a rest would ya? The US Military occupation of Germany ended in 1949. At that time the FRD had ratified the Basic Law. If Germany had not been under the control of 4 separate powers with the USSR fighting Democratization it would have happened earlier. The German states under US control had written constitutions and most cities had civilian mayors. And all this after a MAJOR war that lasted 6 years for Europe, we only saw the last four.

Go here http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/may03/middleEast6.asp and read Michael Bernhard's article written in May of 2003 and see how prophetic he was.

 

[gonzojournals]

Again the comparison of 18th century America to 21st century Iraq. Give that weak ass comparison a rest would ya? The US Military occupation of Germany ended in 1949. At that time the FRD had ratified the Basic Law. If Germany had not been under the control of 4 separate powers with the USSR fighting Democratization it would have happened earlier. The German states under US control had written constitutions and most cities had civilian mayors. And all this after a MAJOR war that lasted 6 years for Europe, we only saw the last four.

Go here http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/may03/middleEast6.asp and read Michael Bernhard's article written in May of 2003 and see how prophetic he was.

History repeats itself, and Americans seem to take for granted their freedom as if the United States were created in a single day, that the Constitution, Declaration, and Revolution all happened at the same time and that there was no slow painful process.

I am not comparing the Iraqi war to the American Revolution, what I am saying is that democracy has never come easily in the history of the world, yet we expect it to in Iraq.

Europe suffered for centuries in an effort to achieve democracy, and America similarly suffered. South America, Africa, and many parts of Asia are still suffering. Democracy does not come cheaply and it does not come quickly, and that is all I meant to say.

Germany, too, took many years to become a democracy, and WWII and its aftermath is only a small portion of German history (our tactics in dealing with German insurgents were also much harsher than our dealings with the Iraqis, if you want to go that route).

 

[Battleborne]

Exactly..............

History repeats itself, and Americans seem to take for granted their freedom as if the United States were created in a single day, that the Constitution, Declaration, and Revolution all happened at the same time and that there was no slow painful process.

I am not comparing the Iraqi war to the American Revolution, what I am saying is that democracy has never come easily in the history of the world, yet we expect it to in Iraq.

Europe suffered for centuries in an effort to achieve democracy, and America similarly suffered. South America, Africa, and many parts of Asia are still suffering. Democracy does not come cheaply and it does not come quickly, and that is all I meant to say.

Germany, too, took many years to become a democracy, and WWII and its aftermath is only a small portion of German history (our tactics in dealing with German insurgents were also much harsher than our dealings with the Iraqis, if you want to go that route).

Werewolfs...shot on sight...no trial...worked out quite well...if not for the 'Harsh' approach...we would still be fighting 'Werewolfs'(Nazis) in Germany today!

 

[Battleborne]

Again the comparison of 18th century America to 21st century Iraq. Give that weak ass comparison a rest would ya? The US Military occupation of Germany ended in 1949. At that time the FRD had ratified the Basic Law. If Germany had not been under the control of 4 separate powers with the USSR fighting Democratization it would have happened earlier. The German states under US control had written constitutions and most cities had civilian mayors. And all this after a MAJOR war that lasted 6 years for Europe, we only saw the last four.

Go here http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/may03/middleEast6.asp and read Michael Bernhard's article written in May of 2003 and see how prophetic he was.

right tell that to the troops still occupying Germany...along with South Korea and yes even Japan!