I'm not about the suggest that violence in the name of religion is to be condoned in any way. However, there is a group of people in this country that have spent the last 10 years vilifying Islam and Muslims in a Christian Crusade. Those in the middle east need to mature and so do those here in the USA. Yes, violence in done in the name of Christianity. Laws are passed and people are attacked and die.
Bill Maher On Islam: "All Religions Are Not Alike"
- Thread starter Rationalist
- Start date
G
Guns Guns Guns
Guest
Do you suppose that rightwingers who spread fear and hate (Sharia law is coming to America, etc.) are culpable in the Islamic riots that claim so many lives abroad?
Look, the US Military burned bibles in Afghanistan, nobody was killed over it and there were no riots.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burned/
This really is a different reaction when defaced Korans needed to be disposed of...
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/02/koran-riots-afghanistan/
the KKK is primarily motivated by race, not by religion. I think it's more or less the same with the nazis.
But, yes, christianity has a violent history and undertones as well. you wont get argument for me on that. But islam, as far as religion is concerned these days, is by far our biggest problem.
bill maher is awesome.
If you do research on the KKK, Nazi's etc. you'll find that 'Christianity' is a huge, not just a 'little influence' HUGE part of their creed....let's remember that Christianity has as many insane sects as Islam and the Jews. There is plenty of violent crazy to go around. Also...we're talking about influence and power...in the middle east and Israel and here, many radical religionists are in power. Give it time, the crazy will get very violent...here and abroad and it won't be the Muslims doing the killing and burning churches...remember the churches that were bombed in the 60's? Children died and the whites used the bible as a back up to their reasoning. It's violent and it has nothing to do with love or peace.
Only because we do not let them incite that sort of violence. Then what do they do, complain that they are being censored.
The Last Temptation of Christ protests
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAqW315se-A
Dogma protests, not as bad, but they complain that they should be able to be as radical as the Muslims.
Islam is about what? 1400 years old? (I mean the version of it with the Quran and Muhammad)
how violent was Christianity in the 1400?
there are many Muslims who still live like it is the 1400's.. of course they are going to over react..
add in years and years of wars and suppressive gov'ts in the mid-east.. gov't who have taught them to hate us.. and why is it so hard to see why they react to everything so violently..
but when in more 'civilized' settings..the majority don't believe in killings.. that doesn't mean over here or other countries that live the way we do there won't be a fanatics.. but there are fanatics is all religion.. in fact, last week that Amish guy was convicted of his violent crime against other Amish people.. to them, it was hideously violent acts against them, to us? not so much.. what was this violent hate crime? Holding the men down and shaving their beards and cutting their hair..
again, to us? eh.. no big deal.. I mean it's 2012.. Bald is in... but to the Amish? it's an affront against God.
someone mentioned McVeigh.. I don't think he killed in the name of God.. so he's not a good example.. but the guy who killed George Tiller, the abortion doctor, while he was in church did kill for his god... how many others murdered,how many abortions clinics have been fire bombed in the name of God.
and there's more than just that.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#United_States
true, not a killing or bombing because someone was saying Jesus is a fag, but how is it any different? Violence in the name of God is violence in the name of God.. and whether it's Allah or Christ, it's violence and people were killed..
Why single out one religion just because you don't think what they are pissed at is any big deal? I don't think a doctor performing legal abortions deserve death. I don't believe homosexuals deserve death. To me, if you do.. you're just as crazy as the Muslim believing anyone who speaks of Muhammad in a bad way deserves death.. so who is right when all have a different take on the subject?
I like Maher and respect his atheism.. but when he made those statements his friend Salman Rushdie was sitting next to him.. Rushdie was ordered killed by Khomeini and had to go into hiding.. I'm not saying Maher doesn't believe what he said, but I think he was more critical that he would have been if Rushdie wasn't sitting next to him..
regardless of any of that.. LOL Liberals aren't like the GOP, we don't get our talking points from Fox news or Denis Miller and then conform with them..I've said it before, trying to get 60 liberals do something is as easy as herding 60 cats to a bathtub..so I don't really care what Maher's position is.. I can disagree with it AND I can still watch and enjoy him every friday night..
...
Now how does that twirl your toes
how violent was Christianity in the 1400?
there are many Muslims who still live like it is the 1400's.. of course they are going to over react..
add in years and years of wars and suppressive gov'ts in the mid-east.. gov't who have taught them to hate us.. and why is it so hard to see why they react to everything so violently..
but when in more 'civilized' settings..the majority don't believe in killings.. that doesn't mean over here or other countries that live the way we do there won't be a fanatics.. but there are fanatics is all religion.. in fact, last week that Amish guy was convicted of his violent crime against other Amish people.. to them, it was hideously violent acts against them, to us? not so much.. what was this violent hate crime? Holding the men down and shaving their beards and cutting their hair..
again, to us? eh.. no big deal.. I mean it's 2012.. Bald is in... but to the Amish? it's an affront against God.
someone mentioned McVeigh.. I don't think he killed in the name of God.. so he's not a good example.. but the guy who killed George Tiller, the abortion doctor, while he was in church did kill for his god... how many others murdered,how many abortions clinics have been fire bombed in the name of God.
and there's more than just that.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#United_States
true, not a killing or bombing because someone was saying Jesus is a fag, but how is it any different? Violence in the name of God is violence in the name of God.. and whether it's Allah or Christ, it's violence and people were killed..
Why single out one religion just because you don't think what they are pissed at is any big deal? I don't think a doctor performing legal abortions deserve death. I don't believe homosexuals deserve death. To me, if you do.. you're just as crazy as the Muslim believing anyone who speaks of Muhammad in a bad way deserves death.. so who is right when all have a different take on the subject?
I like Maher and respect his atheism.. but when he made those statements his friend Salman Rushdie was sitting next to him.. Rushdie was ordered killed by Khomeini and had to go into hiding.. I'm not saying Maher doesn't believe what he said, but I think he was more critical that he would have been if Rushdie wasn't sitting next to him..
regardless of any of that.. LOL Liberals aren't like the GOP, we don't get our talking points from Fox news or Denis Miller and then conform with them..I've said it before, trying to get 60 liberals do something is as easy as herding 60 cats to a bathtub..so I don't really care what Maher's position is.. I can disagree with it AND I can still watch and enjoy him every friday night..
... Now how does that twirl your toes
Exactly!!!!
Nah, they use a pretext taken from Christianity to excuse and/or "sanctify" what they've already decided was the "correct" course. It isn't the basis of the organization, the pretext is, that of racism.
Basically, were I to decide to start throwing cheese at all atheists, but I wanted to have a "reason" for doing it I could find some reason in the bible, were I to take it out of context and apply it to my pretext (that it is "moral" to throw cheese at the "profane"...)
G
Guns Guns Guns
Guest
Irony of ironies...righties quoting Maher.
So is this about you being mad that no one let's Mormon's incite violence against Hillary or about the fact that Muslim states do allow it? Again, that play is tender and loving towards Mormonism compared to the movie we are discussings approach to Islam. There is plenty of material on Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to make something far more vicious.
The depiction of Christ that caused such an uproar did not even suggest that he actually did anything and it was written as fiction. Dogma was clealy meant as satire and took cracks at numerous faiths.
We are comparing firecrackers to bunker busters and still we see that other faiths can be defensive.
Exactly, you are not getting press coverage and if you did you might get more calls from the ADL.
It is pretty major here. Mormonism is not. Scientology does have influence in Hollywood and they have used it to suppress criticism.
I am not sure why it matters that it is not Abrahamic? Again, are you just sore that some religions that you like are ridiculed?
Again, I don't care if they don't like the movie. Maher has a point that they might not realize that the state does not censor/approve our depictions. That's why satire, like South Park's, rules while vicious mockery sucks! The Super Best Friends will save us all.
Straw men almost always begin with "so"...
We are discussing the difference between the religions. Dogma wasn't "heavily" protested, it was weakly protested. How many riots began because of it? How many were killed? Let's compare it to a trailer for a movie that was never even made...
Again, defensive is far different than killing people who have nothing to do with it to make a point that you are offended.
What I do know is that if I were getting press coverage I would absolutely get threats from Muslims. All it takes is some weak image of "the prophet", he doesn't even have to be doing something offensive. The reality is, the BBC, and many others speak against the ADL regularly, nobody seems to be dying. Some dude makes the crappiest trailer ever, people die.
There is a difference here even if you want to pretend there is some moral equivalence in killing people and seven people at the local theater protesting "Dogma"...
Rubbish, there are not even close to the numbers of followers of Scientology even here in the US where it began as there are to Mormonism. Utter nonsense that they are a major religion.
Again, I agreed that they kill the apostate, what I disagree is that it is in any way even close to Islam who kill people who have no relevance whatsoever to what they are "offended" about.
Which again, doesn't make any of this moral equivalence. There is a difference that is obvious in one of the major religions of the world today from any of the others. This isn't some small faction in one nation doing this, it is prevalent across all Muslim nations and pervasive, so much so it envelops sane practitioners of the religion in a pocket of thunderous silence.Again, I don't care if they don't like the movie. Maher has a point that they might not realize that the state does not censor/approve our depictions. That's why satire, like South Park's, rules while vicious mockery sucks! The Super Best Friends will save us all.
But cannot possibly end in a question mark.
Yeah, I noted that I kind of overstated the protests when posting the link to the coverage of them.
Dogma was satire that playfully poked fun at several different faiths and did not cast anyone in a very unfavorable light. This trailer, was about ONE religious icon and was rather mean spirited.
Absolutely.
But if the BBC rebroadcasts parodies of their own dogma?
THAT is a strawman. My point has been that other faiths get all butt hurt too and it is pretty apparent that MY QUESTIONS struck a nerve with you. We have a seperation of church and state here and that keeps them in line. They cannot expect the state to look the other way or support their radcialism.
Again, where I am at... pretty major. What relevance that has, idk? It makes no difference to me.
Now who is trying to find moral equivalence for murder? Apostate or not, it is irrational.
Turkey? Are they killing people.
It has little to do with Islam. It has to do with a lack of appreciation for the secular state or the separation of church and state. If Robertson (I said Falwell before...oops), Akin, Santorum or even Paul Ryan had their way we might see more violence.
Almost always do. Like most sentences beginning with "so"...
And so was the image from the Onion that I posted earlier... The one about how nobody at all was threatened because of it.
?
Nope. Your leading questions were kind of silly, the point of the thread is that there is a difference between the religions, one that can be clearly seen by people getting killed over a stupid and poorly made trailer of a film that has never been made.
Well, considering Maher's remarks were about major religions, yeah, it makes a difference to the point of topic.
Nobody has. I pointed out several times that this is one instance where you would be somewhat right. However the reason behind it isn't because they don't believe it is because they expose the "secrets"...
Are they rioting? Where were the riots about Jesus Christ Superstar?
I doubt that, seriously.
Remind me who was it that invaded Iraq, scriptures written on their bombs, troops carrying Bibles. What nation states that God is on our side and that "he" blesses the USA?
You all can pretend that Islam is more violent, but they aren't, they are just more primitive and use explosives strapped to their persons because they don't have tanks and bombers.
You all can pretend that Islam is more violent, but they aren't, they are just more primitive and use explosives strapped to their persons because they don't have tanks and bombers.
cancel2 2022
Canceled
Over two million died in the Iran-Iraq war and that wasn't from suicide bombers. Half a million at least died in the Bangladesh war in 1971 and there were plenty of tanks and bombers used in that war by West Pakistan.
Nonsense. A strawman requires a positive assertion about someone else's belief. I was questioning you and requesting that you elaborate. You have not. You have just dodged by creating a strawman.
Uhhh, yeah...
http://www.viewaskew.com/dogma/hate/
skip
Based on what? Science Fiction? Fantasy?
When our government turns a blind eye to the violence of dogmatists and does not maintain a secular position on all creeds we HAVE become violent. I can tell you about the nasty things that happened in the South, New York, Chicago, LA and San Francisco. The Mormon faith has a very bloody history. At times they were victims and at times they were the perpetrators.
Yes, it is time for the Muslim faith to moderate and quiet their radicals. But don't believe for a second we don't STILL have radicals.
You are being hypocritical and ignoring the ugly parts of our history. The secular state is ALL that keeps it from reoccuring.
Last edited:
christiefan915
Catalyst
Your second comment should read "this really is a different reaction in Middle Eastern countries when defaced Qur'ans etc."
I don't recall reading that there were any riots among the 2-3 million Muslims living in the US, either over the movie or any Qur'an burning, so that suggests there were other influences operating in the ME besides the acts themselves.
Had we done this because some filmstrip was created depicting Jebus in a comic way I might agree that it was equivalent. If Christians surrounded a Libyan Embassy, launched RPGs at it, then raped and killed Libyan Ambassadors I might further agree.