Bush says we have not won in Iraq yet

[Cypress]

Rubbish. Using that phrase is much like saying "Fundamentalist Islamic Groups" just in a shorter term...

Getting all bent is what they want to do. But naming the enemy is important in any war.

Fair enough.

If you ever vaction in egypt or Dubai, please use the term islamo-fascism and report back to me the reaction you get from average, law-abiding muslim citizens in those countries.



Is bush literally trying to lose the war of ideas, or what?

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Rubbish. Using that phrase is much like saying "Fundamentalist Islamic Groups" just in a shorter term...

Getting all bent is what they want to do. But naming the enemy is important in any war.

Yes, and that we can't properly name the "enemy" is one good indication of the fact that this isn't a war.

 

[Damocles]

Fair enough.

If you ever vaction in egypt or Dubai, please use the term islamo-fascism and report back to me the reaction you get from average, law-abiding muslim citizens in those countries.



Is bush literally trying to lose the war of ideas, or what?

Next time you are there use the term "Fundamentalist Islam" and "Enemy" at the same time and see what reaction you get...

 

[uscitizen]

Bush has never said it was a war on Islam itself. That is a misrepresentation.

Perhaps, but it sort of leaned that way. Gaffer seemed to say that though in his reply. that was what I was referring to.

 

[Damocles]

Yes, and that we can't properly name the "enemy" is one good indication of the fact that this isn't a war.

They have been well-named. This idea that we are not at war with people who have declared war on us is a bit daft IMO.

 

[Cypress]

Next time you are there use the term "Fundamentalist Islam" and "Enemy" at the same time and see what reaction you get...

Excellent. So you agree that conflating religion, in ANY bumper-sticker slogan with terrorism, is likely to provoke a negative reaction from the people you're trying go convince to be moderate.

I wish bush would learn this lessson, that you appear to be quite knowlegable about.

 

[uscitizen]

This is war against a people and their ideologies, not all in the same country.

 

[Damocles]

Excellent. So you agree that conflating religion, in ANY bumper-sticker slogan with terrorism, is likely to provoke a negative reaction from the people you're trying go convince to be moderate.

I wish bush would learn this lessson, that you appear to be quite knowlegable about.

The problem with that is, during the whole "Islamofascism" debate this was the phrase everybody stated was what they actually are and the appropriate name of our enemy. The "Fundamentalist Islam Enemy" isn't much better if people want to get upset they will. Calling them "Islamofascists" doesn't change a thing IMO. It's just shortening a three-word to a one-word.

It doesn't change that it was wrong to give in to terrorism and give a group a nation, it will be wrong to give in again for any other reason. The only way to defeat the terrorist is to stop reacting because of the "terror".

Even in Israel more people die from car accidents than from "terrorism" yet people are more afraid of terrorism? BAH!

Hunt them down, kill them, but react smartly.

 

[Cypress]

The problem with that is, during the whole "Islamofascism" debate this was the phrase everybody stated was what they actually are and the appropriate name of our enemy. The "Fundamentalist Islam Enemy" isn't much better if people want to get upset they will. Calling them "Islamofascists" doesn't change a thing IMO. It's just shortening a three-word to a one-word.

It doesn't change that it was wrong to give in to terrorism and give a group a nation, it will be wrong to give in again for any other reason. The only way to defeat the terrorist is to stop reacting because of the "terror".

Even in Israel more people die from car accidents than from "terrorism" yet people are more afraid of terrorism? BAH!

Hunt them down, kill them, but react smartly.

You know how bush could be smart?

He can diminish them by simply calling them criminals or terrorists.

Elevating them to a vaulted status as some sort of enemy - on the scale of a nation-state - and giving them grand bumpersticker names that insults many people of the islamic faith, just drives more jihadists to bin ladin. The bumper-sticker mentality just legitimizes al qaeda more, in the eyes of some muslims.

Calling them simply criminals delegitimizes them.

 

[Damocles]

You know how bush could be smart?

He can diminish them by simply calling them criminals or terrorists.

Elevating them to a vaulted status as some sort of enemy - on the scale of a nation-state - and giving them grand bumpersticker names that insults many people of the islamic faith, just drives more jihadists to bin ladin. The bumper-sticker mentality just legitimizes al qaeda more, in the eyes of some muslims.

Calling them simply criminals delegitimizes them.

It takes more than just putting them in prison. Putting them in prison and otherwise treating it as a crime and not a war got us 9/11. They were going to keep attempting bit hits until one finally happened and we weren't lucky enough to stop it.

Attempting to put people in prison over it wouldn't have stopped them again and we would simply have had another, and another...

Was this the way to fight it? It clearly didn't work in the past.

What would be the way to fight it? IMO economically. Take away the need for the product that makes them important....

 

[Cypress]

It takes more than just putting them in prison. Putting them in prison and otherwise treating it as a crime and not a war got us 9/11. They were going to keep attempting bit hits until one finally happened and we weren't lucky enough to stop it.

Attempting to put people in prison over it wouldn't have stopped them again and we would simply have had another, and another...

Was this the way to fight it? It clearly didn't work in the past.

What would be the way to fight it? IMO economically. Take away the need for the product that makes them important....

Oh, but you must realize: this is a propaganda war and a war of ideas.

I never said you can't treat some terrorist groups as military and strategic threats.

What I'm saying is be clever about it. Use the military when and where appropriate, but in terms of the propaganda war, diminish al qaeda's credibility, rather than elevating them to the level of a "respected" and feared adversary, on the scale of a "nation-state".

To this end, publically, an american president should refer to them simply as criminals or terrorists.

There's no strategic need or neccessity in inflaming the muslim world, by inventing grand bumper-sticker slogans for al qaeda.

 

[Cypress]

Oh, but you must realize: this is a propaganda war and a war of ideas.

I never said you can't treat some terrorist groups as military and strategic threats.

What I'm saying is be clever about it. Use the military when and where appropriate, but in terms of the propaganda war, diminish al qaeda's credibility, rather than elevating them to the level of a "respected" and feared adversary, on the scale of a "nation-state".

To this end, publically, an american president should refer to them simply as criminals or terrorists.

There's no strategic need or neccessity in inflaming the muslim world, by inventing grand bumper-sticker slogans for al qaeda.

I guarantee you Damo, this is the prudent and wise thing to do.

Even my 18-year old stepson knows we need to use both law enforcement and the military to crush al qaeda. He doesn't care about - nor is he probably even aware - that there's a "new" bumpersticker slogan for al qaeda called "islamo-fascism".

Believe me, the american people can be treated like adults. They know what needs to be done. They don't need an inflammatory bumpersticker to get them on board.

 

[Damocles]

I guarantee you Damo, this is the prudent and wise thing to do.

Even my 18-year old stepson knows we need to use both law enforcement and the military to crush al qaeda. He doesn't care about - nor is he probably even aware - that there's a "new" bumpersticker slogan for al qaeda called "islamo-fascism".

Believe me, the american people can be treated like adults. They know what needs to be done. They don't need an inflammatory bumpersticker to get them on board.

That your 18 year old stepson repeats what you say doesn't surprise me Cypress...

Anyway, I didn't argue against it. I stated that if you want to defeat them you take away what makes them important. That the strongest threat to them is economic.

The American people are made up of some who do need that bumpersticker slogan, and others that do not. Pretending that they are all like your stepson and repeat what you believe is simply ridiculous....

 

[Cypress]

That your 18 year old stepson repeats what you say doesn't surprise me Cypress...

Anyway, I didn't argue against it. I stated that if you want to defeat them you take away what makes them important. That the strongest threat to them is economic.

The American people are made up of some who do need that bumpersticker slogan, and others that do not. Pretending that they are all like your stepson and repeat what you believe is simply ridiculous....

And here we come to the crux of the matter.

You are under the impression that some americans need to be propagandized.

What my stepson thinks, is the same thing that probably 80% of americans think. That al qaeda will be dealt with through law enforcement and military means. And I doubt very many americans know about, let alone care, that the rightwing has invented a bumpersticker called "islamofascist"

This has nothing do do with what I think. You assume because maybe 10% of the american population watches cable news shows and visits poltical message boards, that somehow everyone knows about bush's new bumerpsticker.

they don't dude.

 

[uscitizen]

Bush has a new bumpersticker ? Does it have my avitar on it ?

 

[Damocles]

And here we come to the crux of the matter.

You are under the impression that some americans need to be propagandized.

What my stepson thinks, is the same thing that probably 80% of americans think. That al qaeda will be dealt with through law enforcement and military means. And I doubt very many americans know about, let alone care, that the rightwing has invented a bumpersticker called "islamofascist"

This has nothing do do with what I think. You assume because maybe 10% of the american population watches cable news shows and visits poltical message boards, that somehow everyone knows about bush's new bumerpsticker.

they don't dude.

I don't "assume" I heard the cry for the past few years for a "name the enemy" from the left. It is only after they are named that people become upset? That you attempt to simplify humanity into a box where 80% magically think like you do? Rubbish.

 

[Jarod]

No, he called it a "Crusade" at the beginning, but was talking about a military crusade not comparing it to the Crusades. He misspoke, knew it, and hasn't used that reference since.

Confusing the two is fundametally disingenuous. Even the best of speakers use the wrong word on occassion and this guy was never accused of being that.

In other context (not with Muslims) using the word "crusade" in a military context would have been appropriate.

Many conservatives on the street an don this board consider us to be at war against Islam... Much of Bush's base belives Bush is truely at war with Islam but that he gives lip service to it being only radicals to appease the more liberal amung us.

Most of my conservative friends and many conservatives on this board think ALL muslims should be fought.

 

[Jarod]

I listened to it as I read and typed on here yesterday. He didn't come across with a stirring type speech this time.

The war against saddam was accomplished in three weeks. The war against islam. which is a lot of what the iraq situation is was just kicking into full swing and I don't think Bush realized what we were up against there.

We have to stick it out for now. There's still a lot of successes going on there that are not reported by the media. The media only reports what can be sensationalized.

The government can do a thousand things right in iraq. But one oh shit wipes out all the attaboys and the news media covers that one item for the next 6 months, and whips it back to life every other month.

Bush has a game plan that he is sticking with inspite of the media. I'm not sure its the right game plan based on what little I know. But he's standing by it and staying his course.

PLEASE NOTE THE ABOVE STATEMENT ABOUT THE WAR AGAINST ISLAM!

 

[Cypress]

I don't "assume" I heard the cry for the past few years for a "name the enemy" from the left. It is only after they are named that people become upset? That you attempt to simplify humanity into a box where 80% magically think like you do? Rubbish.

I've never heard this clamour for "name the enemy" of which you speak.

 

[Cypress]

PLEASE NOTE THE ABOVE STATEMENT ABOUT THE WAR AGAINST ISLAM!

Gaffer wrote: The war against islam. which is a lot of what the iraq situation is was just kicking into full swing and I don't think Bush realized what we were up against there.

Right Jarod. Many rightwingers think its a "war on islam". Much of bush's base does. Just turn on virtually any far-rightwing radio talk show.

And, law-abiding arabs in the street know that bush's allies are calling it a war on islam. Jerry Falwell's quotes about islam are well known in the arab world. They don't make a distinction between what bush's political allies say, and what he himself says.

Which begs the question: Why does the right wing want to help the terrorists? Why do they want to inflame the arab world, particulary otherwise law-abiding arab citizens in the street?