california'a version of the az anti-immigrant law

Bijou said:
For as long as we as a nation turn a blind eye to the corps who continue to utilize and exploit cheap immigrant labor without legal consequences, that's how long.
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I will agree that both corporations as well as individuals should be fined to the hilt if they are caught using illegal immigrant workers. I don't think that your above assertion causes folks to flock to this country though.

Thank NAFTA and the corruption on both sides of the border who've been willing to shaft the workers under the repulsively-dishonest guise of 'free trade'. Clinton's biggest mistake. And he was warned, repeatedly. I hope his conscience mugs him over it forever.
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I will absolutely agree with you that NAFTA wasn't good for the workers of this country.

Complete #%€£¥. First of all, MOST of the work performed by poor immigrants, illegal or otherwise, is back-breaking agricultural work and manual unskilled labor.
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True. And I think that able bodied Americans ought to to that work. So called "backbreaking" work is always going to be there. I don't think anyone is too good to work if able.

The second part of your #%€£¥ post regards all the 'benefits' supposedly received by illegal immigrants. If you're interested in sounding like a reasonably-intelligent adult the next time you post on this subject, do yourself a favor and educate yourself. Start here:

http://www.tolerance.org/magazine/number-39-spring-2011/10-myths-about-immigration
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First, as to my comment on benefits, I do not think I said or even implied that a lot of them receive government benefits. I cannot speak for CA though, they do things a bit different out there. But the fact is that they do receive them. That is part of what is breaking that state, and if a solution is not found, it will break this country. And for every benefit received by an illegal, there will be one less for a California American. These benefits are not limitless, even in CA. Second, I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent (i will certainly concede that I don't know everything like Grind :)) and definitely more of an adult than someone who has to use foul language and condescending remarks to make his point. As to your posted article, definitely written with a leftist slant, just a couple of things. There are more than the three types of immigrants allowed into this country than it implied. I have several acquaintances that are here on work visas, working toward their citizenship. They work in the local processing plant and in several of the restaurants in the area. They definitely don't fit the mold of the three described in your article. Bottom line, there is a legal way to get here and they need to follow that way.

Nope. Not until multinational corporations follow the rules, here AND in Mexico.
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Nice... We ain't gonna obey the law until someone else does. Great. I bet those corporations are following the rules, BTW. It's just that some folks don't think the rules are fair. That's fine, work through legal channels and get them changed.
 
leaningright said:
I will agree that both corporations as well as individuals should be fined to the hilt if they are caught using illegal immigrant workers. I don't think that your above assertion causes folks to flock to this country though.



I will absolutely agree with you that NAFTA wasn't good for the workers of this country.



True. And I think that able bodied Americans ought to to that work. So called "backbreaking" work is always going to be there. I don't think anyone is too good to work if able.



First, as to my comment on benefits, I do not think I said or even implied that a lot of them receive government benefits. I cannot speak for CA though, they do things a bit different out there. But the fact is that they do receive them. That is part of what is breaking that state, and if a solution is not found, it will break this country. And for every benefit received by an illegal, there will be one less for a California American. These benefits are not limitless, even in CA. Second, I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent (i will certainly concede that I don't know everything like Grind :)) and definitely more of an adult than someone who has to use foul language and condescending remarks to make his point. As to your posted article, definitely written with a leftist slant, just a couple of things. There are more than the three types of immigrants allowed into this country than it implied. I have several acquaintances that are here on work visas, working toward their citizenship. They work in the local processing plant and in several of the restaurants in the area. They definitely don't fit the mold of the three described in your article. Bottom line, there is a legal way to get here and they need to follow that way.



Nice... We ain't gonna obey the law until someone else does. Great. I bet those corporations are following the rules, BTW. It's just that some folks don't think the rules are fair. That's fine, work through legal channels and get them changed.
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Good points all around. You and I agree a lot more than we disagree.

'Free trade' doesn't exist and until it's replaced with something fair whereby workers share in the benefits of the agreement, the race to the bottom will continue. Those seeking work here from Mexico and points south have few options available to them. Multinational corps on either side of the border are able to exploit that desperation - here, with shitty wages; there, with shittier wages, shittier working conditions; etc. Unless and until corporations who profit from this misery are held accountable and laws are enforced that discourage, deter and penalize any who would violate them, it will continue and workers here AND there are who pays. And yes, as long as as they come here out of desperation, due to what our trade policies have done to destroy their economies south of the border, their 'illegalitiy' is a petty formality in my view.
 
Bijou said:
Exactly. Gee, I wonder why they hire 'illegals'?? Is their workmanship superior? or is it that they'll work dirt-cheap and don't demand benefits?

Such employers are the driving force behind the wage race to the bottom.
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Why then so much support from politicians for illegals?
 
cawacko said:
Sanctuary cities, locals discount for universities, basic attempts at amnesty, efforts to give government benefits.
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The labor provided by immigrants is crucial to agribusiness and other unskilled labor here. Either they figure out a way to make those jobs appealing to U.S. citizens (higher pay might help), or they accept the inevitable because the influx will continue as long as there's a demand for cheap labor. The veggies need to be picked. Poor immigrants gladly do it. Let them. Be grateful, otherwise your salad's going to be pretty sparse.

It's astonishing to me how 'outraged' people are that anyone, particularly a politician, might be concerned with treating undocumented workers with a modicum of dignity.
 
Bijou said:
The labor provided by immigrants is crucial to agribusiness and other unskilled labor here. Either they figure out a way to make those jobs appealing to U.S. citizens (higher pay might help), or they accept the inevitable because the influx will continue as long as there's a demand for cheap labor. The veggies need to be picked. Poor immigrants gladly do it. Let them. Be grateful, otherwise your salad's going to be pretty sparse.

It's astonishing to me how 'outraged' people are that anyone, particularly a politician, might be concerned with treating undocumented workers with a modicum of dignity.
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I'm all for legal immigration into this country. I want the best and brightest minds from around the world to come study in the U.S. and then stay here and use their talents to create and invent and help keep our economy the most dynamic in the world.

I also understand, as you point out, that we need workers to pick out fields and do labor a lot of Americans don't want to do. For that we should have work visas which allow those who want to come here and work to have an opportunity to better their families condition to do so. It allows these people to be in the country legally and have all the rights of others.

While I can respect someone who is willing to risk all to come here to better themselves I believe they should do it legally and our system should be set up where with resonanble efforts it should not be difficult for someone to do.
 
Bijou said:
The labor provided by immigrants is crucial to agribusiness and other unskilled labor here. Either they figure out a way to make those jobs appealing to U.S. citizens (higher pay might help), or they accept the inevitable because the influx will continue as long as there's a demand for cheap labor. The veggies need to be picked. Poor immigrants gladly do it. Let them. Be grateful, otherwise your salad's going to be pretty sparse.

It's astonishing to me how 'outraged' people are that anyone, particularly a politician, might be concerned with treating undocumented workers with a modicum of dignity.
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Wonder how many of those immigrants are getting paid at least minimum wage? We know that if they're dirt-poor, they'll be willing to work for maybe $5/hr. as opposed to the $7.15 a farmer would be required to pay a legal worker. It's always about the bottom line.
 
cawacko said:
I'm all for legal immigration into this country. I want the best and brightest minds from around the world to come study in the U.S. and then stay here and use their talents to create and invent and help keep our economy the most dynamic in the world.
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The 'best and the brightest' don't need to come here; the bulk of undocumented workers are the uneducated and desperate. What our unskilled labor market and agribusiness needs are those who will do the tedious and strenuous jobs in the fields and factories, and legal entry for those willing to perform those tasks needs to be streamlined and simplified.

I also understand, as you point out, that we need workers to pick out fields and do labor a lot of Americans don't want to do. For that we should have work visas which allow those who want to come here and work to have an opportunity to better their families condition to do so. It allows these people to be in the country legally and have all the rights of others.
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You bet. I agree. See above.

While I can respect someone who is willing to risk all to come here to better themselves I believe they should do it legally and our system should be set up where with resonanble efforts it should not be difficult for someone to do.
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I agree - however, that process (entering legally) needs to be reformed and simplified. These people aren't criminals.
 
christiefan915 said:
Wonder how many of those immigrants are getting paid at least minimum wage? We know that if they're dirt-poor, they'll be willing to work for maybe $5/hr. as opposed to the $7.15 a farmer would be required to pay a legal worker. It's always about the bottom line.
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Exploiting desperation for maximum gain is the whole point.
 
christiefan915 said:
Wonder how many of those immigrants are getting paid at least minimum wage? We know that if they're dirt-poor, they'll be willing to work for maybe $5/hr. as opposed to the $7.15 a farmer would be required to pay a legal worker. It's always about the bottom line.
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You have now exposed your stupidity, regarding farm workers.
At this rate; you'll show everyone that you don't have a clue, about anything, by the end of this year.


Wages in Agriculture

The Department of Labor's (DOL) Wage and Hour Division administers three laws that determine the wages of workers engaged in agricultural employment. The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires payment of no less than the federal minimum wage for each hour worked and time and one-half the employee's regular rate of pay for hours worked in excess of 40 in the workweek. The federal minimum wage for covered, nonexempt employees is $5.85 per hour effective July 24, 2007; $6.55 per hour effective July 24, 2008; and $7.25 per hour effective July 24, 2009. Certain small farms are exempt from the minimum wage and overtime requirements of the FLSA. Workers engaged in agricultural employment (as defined by the FLSA) are exempt from the overtime requirements.

Most migrant and seasonal workers engaged in agriculture are protected by the Migrant and Seasonal Agricultural Worker Protection Act (MSPA). This law requires, among other things, that workers receive the rate that was disclosed upon recruitment or hire. This is sometimes called the "promised wage." The disclosed wage cannot be less than the higher of the applicable state minimum wage or the federal minimum wage established in the FLSA. The law also restricts the deductions that may be legally made from worker's wages.

The H-2A provisions of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) authorize the lawful entry into the United States of temporary, non-immigrant workers (H-2A workers) to perform agricultural labor or agricultural services of a temporary or seasonal nature. Foreign workers and U.S. workers performing the same work at the same location for the same employer as foreign workers must be paid the highest of (a) the Adverse Effect Wage Rate (AEWR), (b) the "prevailing rate" for a given crop/area or (c) the federal or state minimum wage. The law also contains requirements regarding employer-provided meals and transportation of workers and restricts the deductions that may be legally made from workers' wages.
 
Damocles said:
One should finish this sentence with "at such low pay"...
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which is partially driven down because of the willing numbers of illegal immigrant workers. funny how that works. they come in, work for lower wages, which sets the market price for labor in those jobs, then americans can't/won't work those jobs, and then that's used as justification for allowing illegal immigration.
 
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