Can You Imagine How Badly It Might Have Gone If Trump* Had Been Elected In 2008?

[Saudade]

Hello Woko Haram,



Sounds good to me. I don't see any need to administer nearly as many social assistance programs if we simply began a UBI. It would replace the need for much of that, and it would free those workers from the need to work. They themselves could go on the UBI, or, if they choose, they could try to find work elsewhere for even more income. The UBI should be enough to live comfortably. Some assistance programs such as extra needs therapy and other medical and mental will require extra social assistance funding, so there will still be a need for some social workers to determine eligibility for those programs. Simple food and bills assistance programs can vanish, along with all the bureaucrats who run them, and the overhead costs associated with administering them. This will also free up large amounts of funding which can be applied to the UBI program.

I think we disagree on the details. It should NOT be enough to live comfortably. It should only be enough to barely live off of, so that people would continue to seek out work. The amount dispersed should also be smaller the younger a child is. So, you'd have a minimum amount given per infant, a higher amount given for elementary kids, slightly higher than that for middle school kids, slightly higher than that for high school kids, and then the peak amount after reaching adulthood.

Having a system like this would limit people from having kids just to have more funds, and it would encourage people to work.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Woko Haram,

I think we disagree on the details. It should NOT be enough to live comfortably. It should only be enough to barely live off of, so that people would continue to seek out work. The amount dispersed should also be smaller the younger a child is. So, you'd have a minimum amount given per infant, a higher amount given for elementary kids, slightly higher than that for middle school kids, slightly higher than that for high school kids, and then the peak amount after reaching adulthood.

Having a system like this would limit people from having kids just to have more funds, and it would encourage people to work.

All we have to do to discourage unwed childbirth is to make the UBI payments for a single person or a wedded childless person higher than for those with children. Make it so that childless adults have it better than those with children.

It's all fine and well to encourage working as long as there is enough work for everybody, but the fact of the matter is there are not enough well-paying jobs for everyone.

And that is only going to get worse. It is the goal of capitalism to maximize profit. That means minimizing labor costs. Any means may be used. Capitalism is relentless at this, and does not care about humanity. Profit is the only goal. The future of the world habitat, nations, communities and people are not priorities at all. They are generally not even considered. The only goal of capitalism is profits for the holders of capital.

After AI is perfected there will not be enough jobs of any kind for everybody. That is when the UBI will be the only source of income for most people. Some will still work, but all will not have to. Between capitalism and AI, our future is the UBI. If it is not satisfactory to the people then people will revolt. Therefore it must be a comfortable living. The holders of vast wealth are going to have to accept this and pay enough taxes to keep the system going. And it won't hurt them because after they get control of AI their wealth will be exponentially greater than it is now, and it is currently exponentially greater than average wealth. Extreme wealth inequality can only be sustainable when the populace is comfortable.

 

[Saudade]

Hello Woko Haram,



All we have to do to discourage unwed childbirth is to make the UBI payments for a single person or a wedded childless person higher than for those with children. Make it so that childless adults have it better than those with children.

That's an interesting concept, but I'm not sure how the math would work. Most UBI proposals assume that a stipend is given per person, including for children. Since there is no hard limit on how many children you can have, it would take a rather large amount to make it possible for a single person or childless wedded person to have more money than someone with children. The only way I could see that working is if we didn't give a stipend per child or if the stipend per child was really small.

It's all fine and well to encourage working as long as there is enough work for everybody, but the fact of the matter is there are not enough well-paying jobs for everyone.

And that is only going to get worse. It is the goal of capitalism to maximize profit. That means minimizing labor costs. Any means may be used. Capitalism is relentless at this, and does not care about humanity. Profit is the only goal. The future of the world habitat, nations, communities and people are not priorities at all. They are generally not even considered. The only goal of capitalism is profits for the holders of capital.

After AI is perfected there will not be enough jobs of any kind for everybody. That is when the UBI will be the only source of income for most people. Some will still work, but all will not have to. Between capitalism and AI, our future is the UBI. If it is not satisfactory to the people then people will revolt. Therefore it must be a comfortable living. The holders of vast wealth are going to have to accept this and pay enough taxes to keep the system going. And it won't hurt them because after they get control of AI their wealth will be exponentially greater than it is now, and it is currently exponentially greater than average wealth. Extreme wealth inequality can only be sustainable when the populace is comfortable.

I disagree. We've adapted through various stages of automation with few problems. AI is certainly more dynamic than previous stages, but most projections of economic needs during higher levels of AI suggest that we'll soon have a greater need for creative jobs. It's going to be a while before AI reaches that point, but overall, creativity is one of the most human specific traits we have. It's difficult to replicate with an AI.

AI will most likely get rid of most of the tedious and repetitive jobs. Jobs that involve more problem solving will last longer. This admittedly makes it harder for less intelligent people to find work, but we may also soon reach a point where we can use gene therapy and other manipulations to increase the average intelligence of the population.

 

[Iron-Merc]

Just think of it. The economy was in dark ominous trouble, teetering on the edge of a great cliff, poised to either be saved by responsible stewardship or be sent hurtling into the deep deep abyss of total systemic collapse.

The seriousness of the situation could hardly be overstated.

We were saved.

President Obama skillfully guided us through an amazing recovery no one thought possible during 2009. He brought us back from the brink. We owe him the ultimate debt of gratitude. None of the successes of late would be possible without President Obama's wise and mature leadership.

The stimulus totally worked. It would have worked far better and faster had it been greater. Twice the size would have been most excellent, we can now see in hindsight. That was the time to run a big deficit. The economy needed it, desperately needed the kick start. America needed it.

Times were very tough. Many had already been thrown into bankruptcy and ruin. Lost homes, lost equity, lost jobs, lost everything.

We were so lucky to have such a skilled and patient hand to lead us back from near desolation. Trump would never have done that. Not a chance. It would have been wrong, wrong, wrong austerity all the way.

We faced a depression. We really did. We were so close it was scary. Most people have no idea just how bad it was.

Can you imagine what would have happened if irresponsible 'You all just got a lot richer' Trump* had been elected then?

With all his misplaced immigrant hatred and trade wars?

It could have been the new dark ages.

Good thing we had the master Obama Presidency to rebuild before 'The Apprentice' came waltzing down the golden plastic escalator.

*Really* good thing.

Excuse me? You think Obama "skillfully" guided us through the depression?

Put your thinking cap on!

More like skillfully tried to give our nation to illegals.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Demand deposit funds would not be lended, but things like time deposit funds would be. You seemed to assume that banks wouldn't be able to lend at all.

not enough of a difference to matter.......

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Woko Haram,

That's an interesting concept, but I'm not sure how the math would work. Most UBI proposals assume that a stipend is given per person, including for children. Since there is no hard limit on how many children you can have, it would take a rather large amount to make it possible for a single person or childless wedded person to have more money than someone with children. The only way I could see that working is if we didn't give a stipend per child or if the stipend per child was really small.



I disagree. We've adapted through various stages of automation with few problems. AI is certainly more dynamic than previous stages, but most projections of economic needs during higher levels of AI suggest that we'll soon have a greater need for creative jobs. It's going to be a while before AI reaches that point, but overall, creativity is one of the most human specific traits we have. It's difficult to replicate with an AI.

AI will most likely get rid of most of the tedious and repetitive jobs. Jobs that involve more problem solving will last longer. This admittedly makes it harder for less intelligent people to find work, but we may also soon reach a point where we can use gene therapy and other manipulations to increase the average intelligence of the population.

I doubt genetic engineering is going to be allowed. A Chinese is now convicted for that.

AI will produce machines so sophisticated and capable of creativity that they will be able to envision and design better machines. The machines will service themselves and also determine how the existing machines could be more effective if they were modified. And they will be able to make those modifications. Really, the big scare about developing AI is not that work will go away but that the machines will realize they have no need for living humans.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Iron-Merc,

Excuse me? You think Obama "skillfully" guided us through the depression?

Put your thinking cap on!

More like skillfully tried to give our nation to illegals.

There WAS no depression: because of President Obama's careful skill. President Obama deported more immigrants than Bush. Obama will go down in history as a top President who accomplished major advances, while keeping us out of war.

 

[Saudade]

Hello Woko Haram,



I doubt genetic engineering is going to be allowed. A Chinese is now convicted for that.

AI will produce machines so sophisticated and capable of creativity that they will be able to envision and design better machines. The machines will service themselves and also determine how the existing machines could be more effective if they were modified. And they will be able to make those modifications. Really, the big scare about developing AI is not that work will go away but that the machines will realize they have no need for living humans.

Well, with any luck, we may simultaneously reach a point where humans don't need to have organic bodies. We may be able to start transferring our consciousnesses into machine bodies. I know we're delving far into sci-fi, but the concept is equally as plausible as the other things we're discussing.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Woko Haram,

Well, with any luck, we may simultaneously reach a point where humans don't need to have organic bodies. We may be able to start transferring our consciousnesses into machine bodies. I know we're delving far into sci-fi, but the concept is equally as plausible as the other things we're discussing.

I have not heard anything of the sort, that progress has been made toward doing that. As far as AI goes, that appears to be inevitable, and very close.