Change the world. Use cash.

[Althea]

You look pretty pathetic that you have so little in your life that you spend it reading dozens of meaningless posts on a chat forum.
Unlike you apparently - I have a life.

And even if I did not (or was bored - as I am now) - I have no interest in wading through the waves of moronic blather that seems to emanate from most of the people on this site.

This is a perfect example.
I said one post about your comment?
About a subject I barely care about.
And now - you won't shut up about it.



If you don't know?
There is no point in me trying to explain it.


I have already wasted too much time on this silliness.

We are done here...for now.

Good day.

Well, you're making 10+ posts/day here, so you obviously don't have a life that keeps you from showing how stupid you are.

If you don't care about the topic, then it probably makes sense to avoid the discussion.

And there is no reason to pay fees for high end credit cards, but you'll never qualify for them.

Again...moot point.

Again...you don't belong in this thread.

If this is where you come when you're bored, you really don't have a life.

Do you?

 

[moon]

there is the fear the government wants all transactions electronic. because cash is more difficult to trace.
I used to think that was conspiratorial. now i dont know

I'm sure that governments know full-well the scenarios suggested in the OP- and they would rather see the financiers profit than Joe Citizen getting a square deal.
After all- they ARE the financiers.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The original concept of the time-value of money is not only clever, but logical and works.

In an example, it works like this:

I have say 100 gold coins. Those have real value as they are gold and contain a certain weight of gold. I go to the bank and deposit my coins for a year with the bank guaranteeing at the end of a year I'll have 105 gold coins in return. That is, I gain some interest from giving the bank the coins to invest.

The bank then takes my coins, and loans them to another customer for a year requiring that customer to pay 10 gold coins for the loan. Thus, the customer owes 110 gold coins at the end of a year.

This is something of an accounting sleight of hand. The bank theoretically has 100 gold coins of mine, but they've loaned them to another customer and in effect doubled the theoretical number of gold coins in circulation. At the end of the year, I get 5 gold coins I didn't previously have while the bank gets 5 gold coins they didn't have and can now use to invest or loan to other customers. The borrower, assumedly, did something with the coins they borrowed to gain 10 or more coins from someone else in the process.

This system works to immediately double the money supply and it also works over time to increase the amount of money in circulation.

Crypto on the other hand is essentially a Ponzi scheme. Money is created out of thin air and grows in value with each transaction. If those invested in a crypto currency made a run on the system they are in and demanded their money in some other form, there's really nothing backing it that could be handed over. FTX represents an extreme case of what happens when customers make a run on a crypto currency.

Banks are required to keep a certain amount of cash on hand to cover customer withdrawals, etc. Crypto currencies are not.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

There is another alternative, crypto currencies, which have very low fees, or precious metals if it can't be done with cryptos. The problem with government issued cash is that banks basically get to produce tons of it out of thin air, or "quantitative easing".

My favourite documentary on the problem with the current monetary system for those who aren't aware of the issues is this one:

Crypto is DEFINITELY having a great week now. I can see why people would want to use a mystical currency predicated on algorithms that almost no one actually fully understands and one of the main exchanges for this currency just turned out to be a massive scam (even if they didn't intend it to become that it became that).

 

[Scott]

Crypto is DEFINITELY having a great week now. I can see why people would want to use a mystical currency predicated on algorithms that almost no one actually fully understands and one of the main exchanges for this currency just turned out to be a massive scam (even if they didn't intend it to become that it became that).

Nothing mystical about them. I do believe there are good cryptos and bad cryptos though, both in the short term and the long term. I don't pretend to know what cryptos are bad in the short term, but if Bitcoin doesn't revamp itself relatively soon, I think it'll end up on the 'bad' category. It's expensive to move (sometimes -really- expensive) and it's also slow to move. I understand that it was the first on the scene, but there are a lot of other cryptos that are better these days, including the second highest ranking by market cap, Ethereum.

As to crypto exchanges, one naturally has to do one's due dilligence on them, just as one has to do due dilligence on anything when it comes to money. I've stopped helping my mother with her cryptos, so I'd never even heard of the exchange that was clearly a scam. I -had- dealt with another crypto exchange that was a similar scam, a Canadian one who's name escapes me, but the general rule back when I was helping my mother was to try to only have cryptos on exchanges when actually exchanging one crypto for another, so we had nothing on the exchange when it went belly up.

 

[Neoclitorus]

there is the fear the government wants all transactions electronic. because cash is more difficult to trace.
I used to think that was conspiratorial. now i dont know

crypto is innately digital.

it's a bunch of bullshit.

 

[Scott]

All cryptos are essentially backed by what people are willing to pay for them. That value can ofcourse change, and does frequently, but it's clear that the value of the top 2 cryptos has risen significantly since their inception. Furthermore, as I mentioned previously, some cryptos are in fact backed up by more traditional forms of value. Currently, the most popular asset is the US dollar, but others are pegged to gold and to real estate. I linked to an article on these cryptos in post #27.

Real estate can lose value, be seized, vandalized or even destroyed. Gold can be seized or stolen. There is no safe harbor when it comes to assets of value, all assets have risks. They are also generally harder to liquidate than cryptos, especially real estate.

I disagree, crypto-shill.

You're dumb.

If you don't want to counter my arguments, just saying that you disagree is fine. Using the ad hominem fallacy does nothing for your argument:

Definition and Examples of an Ad Hominem Fallacy | thoughtco.com

 

[Scott]

there is the fear the government wants all transactions electronic. because cash is more difficult to trace.
I used to think that was conspiratorial. now i dont know

I can believe it. But just because the government wants to track all transactions doesn't mean that cryptos must therefore be bad by default. Furthermore, there are a good number of cryptos that have been made to avoid being tracked. A list of them is here:

The 6 Most Private Cryptocurrencies | investopedia.com

This doesn't mean that I have anything against physical forms of currency. The problem with physical forms of currency is that it's hard to make payments with them over long distances and if you have a lot of it in one place, you become a target for theft or law enforcement seizure:

Police Can Seize Money and Property Without Criminal Charges | cashseizurelaw.com

 

[Scott]

crypto is innately digital.

it's a bunch of bullshit.

Most US dollars are virtual only as well. That's the nature of fractional reserve banking. The difference between most cryptos and fractional reserve banking is that banks are essentially able to get money for next to nothing through things like quantitative easing. An article on the subject that I think gets into the gist of it is here:

The Crime Known As Quantitative Easing | cobdencentre.org

Cryptocurrencies don't allow banks to do this, which is one of the reasons that the value of some of them has skyrocketed since their inception.

 

[Neoclitorus]

Most US dollars are virtual only as well. That's the nature of fractional reserve banking. The difference between most cryptos and fractional reserve banking is that banks are essentially able to get money for next to nothing through things like quantitative easing. An article on the subject that I think gets into the gist of it is here:

The Crime Known As Quantitative Easing | cobdencentre.org

Cryptocurrencies don't allow banks to do this, which is one of the reasons that the value of some of them has skyrocketed since their inception.

sbf just used cryptocurrenciess to overleverage.

there's nothing backing them.

there's not even fdic up to a certain amount.

the blockchain is just a digital creation.

there is no way I can be convinced that there is no backdoor to it.

and even if the false scarcity is real there is no end to the subdivisions possible on 1 crypto dollar.

theoretically, something can be halved infinitely.

 

[McRocket]

Most US dollars are virtual only as well. That's the nature of fractional reserve banking. The difference between most cryptos and fractional reserve banking is that banks are essentially able to get money for next to nothing through things like quantitative easing. An article on the subject that I think gets into the gist of it is here:

The Crime Known As Quantitative Easing | cobdencentre.org

Cryptocurrencies don't allow banks to do this, which is one of the reasons that the value of some of them has skyrocketed since their inception.

You are partially right. Fractional reserve banking is nuts.

But virtually all of your funds in the bank are covered by FDIC.
Your bank goes bye bye...and you don't lose a penny.

If a crypto goes to zero?
Every dime you put into it - goes to zero.

As bad as US dollars are?
They are backed by something...the Fed and the United States government.
And you can always exchange them for cash - if you wish.

Most cryptos are backed by nothing.
Literally.
You cannot exchange them for a solid cryptocurrency...because there are few/no such things as cryptocurrency cash.
As they still represent the crypto itself.

I don't want to get in a big discussion about this.

But the fact remains that most cryptos (that I know of) are backed by nothing and represent nothing.
And are literally...nothing.
A giant EMP pulse hits the world?
And most/ALL of them go bye bye.

Plus, every transaction by Bitcoin takes a GIGANTIC amount of electricity.
If I pay cash for a candy bar...it can take zero electricity.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/


Finally, cryptos are astoundingly unstable.
That is a terrible basis for a currency.


You like/love 'em?
Fine.

But I will pass.


Good day.

 

[Neoclitorus]

I believe crypto was invented to distract the goldbug contingent of libertarians, who are right.

smart people believing dumb things.

and know they're talking about regulating and ending the anonymity of walllets.

goodbye, only upside to crypto.

 

[serenity]

Aye to that, cobbler.

why doesn't everyone figure out the yield rate a simple 6% sales tax does to currency every time a bill changes by transaction.

Every time that $50.00 note is used it loses 6% value because taxes reduce buying power in compounding reduction of 6% every transaction in the economy. every 16.25 times it is used that $50.00 note becomes simple symbolism over substance and the tax revenue never ends while people are pretending it still has value.

simple compounding results that invert every conversion between buying and selling substance for symbolism. When all is said and done, the population practicing self deception cheated themselves out of their own biological time living in plain sight when extinction arrives. self inflicted saving ideology over ancestral displacement.

 

[moon]

serenity;

a..note becomes simple symbolism over substance and the tax revenue never ends while people are pretending it still has value.

Yes, cash is symbolism. You don't have to accept that it has value. Same with governments. As was stated by dukkha- transactions are hard to trace.

 

[Scott]

sbf just used cryptocurrenciess to overleverage.

sbf, short for Sam Bankman-Fried for those not familiar with the acronym, was just a white collar thief. He had powerful interests backing him though, and at least one journalist suspects he was arrested in the Bahamas on December 12th because he had been scheduled to testify virtually to congress on December 13th. From the journalist in question:

**
So, Why Arrest SBF Now, When He Was Just About to Testify Under Oath Before Congress?

Although I cannot be certain, pattern recognition based on 25+ years in criminal justice (including my time as a federal prosecutor) tells me that the DOJ does not like to be embarrassed. SBF was scheduled to testify, remotely, before Congress tomorrow. Having SBF testify under oath as a free man in the Bahamas—apparently beyond the reach of the U.S. government—threatened to humiliate the DOJ.

My strong suspicion is that when the DOJ learned that SBF would testify on December 13, it set a December 12 deadline to deliver an indictment to the Bahamas’ attorney general, so as to avoid the optical embarrassment of SBF testifying to Congress from a mansion in a tropical paradise.

As for SBF, he’s got nothing but bad options laid out before him.
**

Source:
Why the Feds Chose Right Now to Bust Crypto’s Golden Boy | The Daily Beast

there's nothing backing them.

As I mentioned previously, what backs them is what people are willing to pay for them. That's all that backs fiat currencies as well.

there's not even fdic up to a certain amount.

the blockchain is just a digital creation.

there is no way I can be convinced that there is no backdoor to it.

and even if the false scarcity is real there is no end to the subdivisions possible on 1 crypto dollar.

theoretically, something can be halved infinitely.

There are actually limits to how much cryptos can be subdivided, but let's just say I've never heard of a crypto that has had a problem there. The scarcity of some cryptos such as Bitcoin is real, and I think it's a good thing, but another thing that is important is that a crypto is good at transactions and there, I'm not impressed with Bitcoin. There are many others that are faster and cheaper to move, starting with the second highest crypto by market cap, Ethereum. Ethereum also no longer uses a ton of energy on mining more of them, so it's got a lot of advantages over Bitcoin. Ethereum doesn't have a hard cap on how many will ever be issued unlike Bitcoin, but as long as they only issue a fairly low number of Ethereum every year, I think it should be fine. The problem with US dollars is the Fed has been creating way too many of them in my view, and has charged 0 interest or close to it for banks at some points. Who doesn't like free money? But it's not fair to people who actually have to work for their money.

 

[Scott]

Most US dollars are virtual only as well. That's the nature of fractional reserve banking. The difference between most cryptos and fractional reserve banking is that banks are essentially able to get money for next to nothing through things like quantitative easing. An article on the subject that I think gets into the gist of it is here:

The Crime Known As Quantitative Easing | cobdencentre.org

Cryptocurrencies don't allow banks to do this, which is one of the reasons that the value of some of them has skyrocketed since their inception.

You are partially right. Fractional reserve banking is nuts.

I don't see how I'm only partially right.

But virtually all of your funds in the bank are covered by FDIC.
Your bank goes bye bye...and you don't lose a penny.

You don't lose a penny, sure, but inflation can skyrocket and still make your money all but wortheless. People don't understand that when the FED gives banks tons of money through "quantitative easing", they're reducing the value of the US dollar.

If a crypto goes to zero?
Every dime you put into it - goes to zero.

Some countries have had and continue to have terrible inflation. Some examples:
https://medium.com/geekculture/the-top-21-countries-where-inflation-is-the-worst-e1aec72b15b

Any currency, whether government issued or otherwise, runs this risk of terrible inflation for various reasons. I think we might be able to agree that the best currencies are backed by assets that have uses outside of just being a method of exchange, whether that's something like precious metals or real estate. I believe that is where money will head to eventually, but not before people realize what a bad idea it is to have currencies only backed by what people are willing to pay for them. While assets like precious metals and real estate are certainly good in the sense that they are some of the most reliable in terms of maintaining value, that's not always the case, especially when it comes to real estate. Also, physical assets can be more vulnerable to theft or seizure. Combining physical assets with virtual ones like cryptos is the best way forward in my view.

Most cryptos are backed by nothing.
Literally.
You cannot exchange them for a solid cryptocurrency...because there are few/no such things as cryptocurrency cash.
As they still represent the crypto itself.

Some of the highest market cap cryptos are actually pegged to the US dollar. After Bitcoin and Ethereum, USDT (US Dollar Tether) and USD Coin come in at 3rd and 4th highest value cryptos by market cap, coming in at around 66 Billion and 44 Billion respectively:
https://coinmarketcap.com/

I believe I understand the reason for this. Precisely due to the high volatility of cryptos, many tend to put their cryptos into these US Dollar pegged cryptos to whether out any crypto winters. Also, there's a growing number of cryptos that can be exchanged for these dollar pegged cryptos as well.

I don't want to get in a big discussion about this.

But the fact remains that most cryptos (that I know of) are backed by nothing and represent nothing.
And are literally...nothing.
A giant EMP pulse hits the world?
And most/ALL of them go bye bye.

The same would be true for most US dollars as well. Based on a quora question and answer, apparently 99% of all US dollars are digital:
https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-U-S-money-is-digital

Plus, every transaction by Bitcoin takes a GIGANTIC amount of electricity.
If I pay cash for a candy bar...it can take zero electricity.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/

Bitcoin was the first crypto, but it's also perhaps the most expensive and energy intensive to move around. It costs around $2 to move Bitcoin from one electronic wallet to another. The second largest crypto by market cap, Ethereum, only costs around 3 cents per transaction, and is no longer mined either. I've been telling people for years to get out of Bitcoin as I think it's bound to fall eventually, but people just keep on going for it anyway, as reflected by its still dominant #1 position by market cap. It's currently at around 320 Billion in market cap, with Ethereum not even half that, at around 145 Billion in market cap. I think eventually people will come to see things my way though.

Finally, cryptos are astoundingly unstable.
That is a terrible basis for a currency.

For a day to day currency, agreed, but as a vehicle for investment, they've proven to be pretty good. As mentioned previously, the value of Bitcoin has skyrocketed from not even being worth a penny each to currently being worth over 16,000 USD. It's been higher, though, and you already know my thoughts on Bitcoin, so it's not a crypto I'd personally want to invest in, but there are many others with much lower market caps that I do think are worth looking into if one is debt free and owns their own home. It's possible that it might be worth investing in them even if one doesn't meet these conditions, but I'm not sure there.

There is another issue, which is one that my mother has mentioned, which is that it's not always easy to move money around in regular banks. Also, if one doesn't want banks and governments knowing everything one does with one's money, it can be useful to have other forms of currency.

 

[moon]

Phoenyx;

There is another issue, which is one that my mother has mentioned, which is that it's not always easy to move money around in regular banks. Also, if one doesn't want banks and governments knowing everything one does with one's money, it can be useful to have other forms of currency.

Aye to that.

 

[Matt Dillon]

Aye to that, cobbler.

Cash is freedom; Cards are slavery.

 

[moon]

Cash is freedom; Cards are slavery.

We're halfway there.