Children suffer from America’s use of chemical weapons during the Vietnam War

Threedee said:
Oh, is that stuff also harmful? I'm sure it's all a myth!! How can mercury even hurt me when it's so far away?
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So I take it that's a "No"? Thought so.

BTW: In case you didn't know, the shit work the US outsourced to Taiwan long ago, who in turn outsourced to Chinese on the Mainland, is now being outsourced by the Mainland Chinese to Vietnam and Malaysia.
 
Taft2016 said:
This is old Marxist Guard Internationale gibberish.

Agent Orange the capitalists dropped 40 years ago is the problem. :rolleyes:

The insane capitalist expansion of Vietnam and neighbor China, the unregulated dumping of industrial waste into the rivers running between the countries, and into the atmosphere above, has nothing whatsoever to do with it. :rolleyes:

Forget that problems didn't exist 25 years ago, prior to the Tianneman uprising and the eventual rise of capitalism. History is merely a tool for liberals, not an actual academic pursuit. This is what comes of "thinking" according to script, as opposed to thinking objectively.

The irony is, their script thinking was written long ago to bring down American capitalism to allow the expansion of communist imperialism. All the destruction of American capitalism will accomplish will be the ascendancy of Chinese and Russian capitalism.
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The anquish caused by the death of my brother in law at age 50 (in 2001) which was caused by Agent Orange is still fresh enough to renew my frustration with your denial of ANYTHING this country may have done wrong. In fact I am of an age in which many friends have died too young after suffering needlessly for too long as a result of one of YOUR wars.

Yes, I blamed you, the capitalist, imperialist chicken hawk war defender/profiteer. It sure as fuck wasn't us hippies that started the fucking wars. We just pay the vast majority of the burden of the national debt interest so you "capitalists can have more stacked on top of too much already. That's why when the shit hits the fan,. where you gonna run, little man? Your condo in Queens will be one of the first places overun by the mobs.
 
Rune said:
The anquish caused by the death of my brother in law at age 50 (in 2001) which was caused by Agent Orange is still fresh enough to renew my frustration with your denial of ANYTHING this country may have done wrong. In fact I am of an age in which many friends have died too young after suffering needlessly for too long as a result of one of YOUR wars.

Yes, I blamed you, the capitalist, imperialist chicken hawk war defender/profiteer. It sure as fuck wasn't us hippies that started the fucking wars. We just pay the vast majority of the burden of the national debt interest so you "capitalists can have more stacked on top of too much already. That's why when the shit hits the fan,. where you gonna run, little man? Your condo in Queens will be one of the first places overun by the mobs.
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The difference being, dumbass, would be that soldiers in Vietnam came into direct contact with Agent Orange at the time, not traces of it 40 years down the road.

Why create a strawman argument that I'm saying Agent Orange is harmless? Why ignore the current industrial waste problems, that lead to thousands of dead pigs floating down rivers into cities? To poisoned fish populations?

This argument runs along the same vein that it is the highly regulated waste disposal in the United States that is causing global warming, not the unregulated hazardous waste of emerging economies like China. It's utterly transparent hyper-partisan bullshit.

If we heard this story 35 years ago, I would give it some credence and consideration. As it stands, we're hearing about it post the capitalist ascendancy in asia, at a time of reckless industrial waste disposal. The kneejerk liberal reaction is naturally to run to the history books and flip back frantically to find some connection, no matter how remote, to the United States.

Sorry, transparent bullshit doesn't fly with thinking folks.
 
Taft2016 said:
The difference being, dumbass, would be that soldiers in Vietnam came into direct contact with Agent Orange at the time, not traces of it 40 years down the road.

Why create a strawman argument that I'm saying Agent Orange is harmless? Why ignore the current industrial waste problems, that lead to thousands of dead pigs floating down rivers into cities? To poisoned fish populations?

This argument runs along the same vein that it is the highly regulated waste disposal in the United States that is causing global warming, not the unregulated hazardous waste of emerging economies like China. It's utterly transparent hyper-partisan bullshit.

If we heard this story 35 years ago, I would give it some credence and consideration. As it stands, we're hearing about it post the capitalist ascendancy in asia, at a time of reckless industrial waste disposal. The kneejerk liberal reaction is naturally to run to the history books and flip back frantically to find some connection, no matter how remote, to the United States.

Sorry, transparent bullshit doesn't fly with thinking folks.
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Right, because the genetic damage done to native children in 1973 couldn't possibly show up in their progeny. Yeah you are a real thoughtful moron.
 
Taft2016 said:
The difference being, dumbass, would be that soldiers in Vietnam came into direct contact with Agent Orange at the time, not traces of it 40 years down the road.

Why create a strawman argument that I'm saying Agent Orange is harmless? Why ignore the current industrial waste problems, that lead to thousands of dead pigs floating down rivers into cities? To poisoned fish populations?

This argument runs along the same vein that it is the highly regulated waste disposal in the United States that is causing global warming, not the unregulated hazardous waste of emerging economies like China. It's utterly transparent hyper-partisan bullshit.

If we heard this story 35 years ago, I would give it some credence and consideration. As it stands, we're hearing about it post the capitalist ascendancy in asia, at a time of reckless industrial waste disposal. The kneejerk liberal reaction is naturally to run to the history books and flip back frantically to find some connection, no matter how remote, to the United States.

Sorry, transparent bullshit doesn't fly with thinking folks.
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I am not sure who you would believe but maybe this paper on the subject of dioxin might help.

Marked elevation of dioxin associated with the herbicide Agent Orange was recently found in 19 of 20 blood samples from persons living in Bien Hoa, a large city in southern Vietnam. This city is located near an air base that was used for Agent Orange spray missions between 1962 and 1970. A spill of Agent Orange occurred at this air base more than 30 years before blood samples were collected in 1999. Samples were collected, frozen, and sent to a World Health Organization--certified dioxin laboratory for congener-specific analysis as part of a Vietnam Red Cross project. Previous analyses of more than 2200 pooled blood samples collected in the 1990s identified Bien Hoa as one of several southern Vietnam areas with persons having elevated blood dioxin levels from exposure to Agent Orange. In sharp contrast to this study, our previous research showed decreasing tissue dioxin levels over time since 1970. Only the dioxin that contaminated Agent Orange, 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCDD), was elevated in the blood of 19 of 20 persons sampled from Bien Hoa. A comparison, pooled sample from 100 residents of Hanoi, where Agent Orange was not used, measured blood TCDD levels of 2 parts per trillion (ppt). TCDD levels of up to 271 ppt, a 135-fold increase, were found in Bien Hoa residents. TCDD contamination was also found in some nearby soil and sediment samples. Persons new to this region and children born after Agent Orange spraying ended also had elevated TCDD levels. This TCDD uptake was recent and occurred decades after spraying ended. We hypothesize that a major route of current and past exposures is from the movement of dioxin from soil into river sediment, then into fish, and from fish consumption into people.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11382178
 
Rune said:
Right, because the genetic damage done to native children in 1973 couldn't possibly show up in their progeny. Yeah you are a real thoughtful moron.
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Certainly it could. We have thousands of people right here in this country who were directly exposed to Agent Orange, probably more direct contact than any Vietnamese natives experienced. Surely, we must have scores of these deformed youths running around this country to produce as evidence?

What? We don't?

Didn't think so.

I predict that some uber-libtards will eventually (if they haven't done so already) attempt to blame the radiological problems in Japan on the long-term effects of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, and ignore the tsunami atomic meltdown. Nothing new, really... it's just the long-standing "blame America first" script.
 
Taft2016 said:
Certainly it could. We have thousands of people right here in this country who were directly exposed to Agent Orange, probably more direct contact than any Vietnamese natives experienced. Surely, we must have scores of these deformed youths running around this country to produce as evidence?

What? We don't?

Didn't think so.

I predict that some uber-libtards will eventually (if they haven't done so already) attempt to blame the radiological problems in Japan on the long-term effects of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, and ignore the tsunami atomic meltdown. Nothing new, really... it's just the long-standing "blame America first" script.
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There have been children born with birth defects like spina bifida due to exposure by their fathers to dioxin.


  • The United States Department of Veteran Affairs offers health benefits to all veterans who served during the Vietnam Conflict and were exposed to Agent Orange and a monthly disability compensation package to veterans who were injured or became ill during active duty. Children of Vietnam veterans who have certain birth defects (such as spina bifida) are also eligible for benefits. As of March 2009, United States veterans affected by Agent Orange had received 180-million in compensation and and billions of dollars of medical care.
    The Canadian soldiers affected by Agent Orange have been offered 20-thousand dollars each by the Ottawa province.
    As of spring 2009, the Vietnamese affected by Agent Orange have received three million dollars from the United States to be used for health care, compensation and clean up of the herbicidal residue. Vietnam continues to request more compensation.

 
Imagine what the WP Bush dropped on Falughia will be doing to children it didn't melt outright?


can you say war crime?
 
One of the most rudimentary logical traps is that correlation = causation.

Nothing has been confirmed to link Agent Orange to birth defects, despite whatever recompensation the gov't provides.

Furthermore, at this point we're talking about the *grandchildren* of those exposed to it.
 
Taft2016 said:
One of the most rudimentary logical traps is that correlation = causation.

Nothing has been confirmed to link Agent Orange to birth defects, despite whatever recompensation the gov't provides.

Furthermore, at this point we're talking about the *grandchildren* of those exposed to it.
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Read post 26 first.
 
Abraxas said:
Read post 26 first.
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I did. And yet there's really nothing that confirms a link. There's a lot of "mabyes" and "suggestives" etc., out there. Nothing solid, and to now point to a second or third generation down the road is really stretching facts.

http://www.vva.org/veteran/1207/agent_orange_feature.html

In 1996, the National Academy of Sciences found “limited/suggestive” evidence of an association between Agent Orange exposure and spina bifida, a neural tube defect, in the children of Vietnam veterans....

The Australian Department of Veterans Affairs (without acknowledging a link to Agent Orange exposure) provides treatment to the children of Vietnam veterans with spina bifida, cleft lip or palate, acute myeloid leukemia, and adrenal gland cancer.

Other studies offer evidence that many more birth defects may be associated with dioxin-contaminated herbicide exposure in Vietnam.
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Taft2016 said:
One of the most rudimentary logical traps is that correlation = causation.

Nothing has been confirmed to link Agent Orange to birth defects, despite whatever recompensation the gov't provides.

Furthermore, at this point we're talking about the *grandchildren* of those exposed to it.
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You characterization of the defoliant, Agent Orange as a 'chemical weapon' is beneath you...it was certainly not used as a weapon on Vietnam troops or civilians....
It wasn't used to kill people at all as you're implying in calling it a chem. weapon....
 
NOVA said:
You characterization of the defoliant, Agent Orange as a 'chemical weapon' is beneath you...it was certainly not used as a weapon on Vietnam troops or civilians....
It wasn't used to kill people at all as you're implying in calling it a chem. weapon....
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I did? If I did I didn't mean to, but I don't think I did.
 
Taft2016 said:
I did. And yet there's really nothing that confirms a link. There's a lot of "mabyes" and "suggestives" etc., out there. Nothing solid, and to now point to a second or third generation down the road is really stretching facts.

http://www.vva.org/veteran/1207/agent_orange_feature.html
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I am not sure what constitutes a link for you when blood samples which were sent for testing recently, found elevated levels of the dioxin present in Agent Orange in 19 of 20 blood samples from persons living in Bien Hoa, a large city in southern Vietnam.
 
Abraxas said:
I am not sure what constitutes a link for you when blood samples which were sent for testing recently, found elevated levels of the dioxin present in Agent Orange in 19 of 20 blood samples from persons living in Bien Hoa, a large city in southern Vietnam.
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I view science predicated on the pursuit of American dollars about as valid as man-made global warming "science."
 
Rune said:
The anquish caused by the death of my brother in law at age 50 (in 2001) which was caused by Agent Orange is still fresh enough to renew my frustration with your denial of ANYTHING this country may have done wrong. In fact I am of an age in which many friends have died too young after suffering needlessly for too long as a result of one of YOUR wars.

Yes, I blamed you, the capitalist, imperialist chicken hawk war defender/profiteer. It sure as fuck wasn't us hippies that started the fucking wars. We just pay the vast majority of the burden of the national debt interest so you "capitalists can have more stacked on top of too much already. That's why when the shit hits the fan,. where you gonna run, little man? Your condo in Queens will be one of the first places overun by the mobs.
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Do you intend to be at the forefront of one of those mobs?
Are you willing to put yourself as one of the first ones to be shot down, or do you intend to just sit back somewhere and tell others that they should go?
 
Rune said:
Right, because the genetic damage done to native children in 1973 couldn't possibly show up in their progeny. Yeah you are a real thoughtful moron.
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Then provide the genetic testing that covers the parents of those 20 children, all the way back to 40 years ago.
Nah - It's just more sensible to throw out a complaint and see how many walls it will stick to.
 
Taft2016 said:
I did. And yet there's really nothing that confirms a link. There's a lot of "mabyes" and "suggestives" etc., out there. Nothing solid, and to now point to a second or third generation down the road is really stretching facts.

http://www.vva.org/veteran/1207/agent_orange_feature.html
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Imagine the outrage if someone published a paper that accused the marijuana use from 40 years ago, for being the reason that some of todays children have certain conditions.
 
Taft2016 said:
I view science predicated on the pursuit of American dollars about as valid as man-made global warming "science."
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Frankly I would it was a small price to pay for having Vietnam as a friend and keeping them out of the Chinese sphere of influence. It is very small beer compared to countless billions wasted in Iraq.
 
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