Chinese Communist Party President Xi Jinping met with Kuomintang Chairperson Cheng Li-wen in Beijing today.

[Jack Grealish]

China should finally recognize that Taiwan needs to be recognized as a sovereign nation.
They never will, of course.

I hope that our submission to them on this subject
was worth destroying our domestic industrial base.

There's a reason why I cling to my ethnicity as much as my nationality.
Respectfully, I have to admit that America and I rarely think alike.

The reason you hold this view is because you believe Taiwan is democratic, and people have the right to decide whether their island becomes an independent country. This aligns with your ideology, which you consider ideal. "Democracy" is a beautiful image to you—a group of rational, civilized people sitting together discussing various issues, like university professors meeting to discuss academic matters.

But in reality, the driving force behind Taiwanese independence is Japan, and not the civilized, democratic, pro-Western Japan you imagine, but the Japanese militarism of World War II. In their historical perspective, Japan only lost to the United States in World War II; its aggression against other Asian countries was not wrong.

And the core concept of so-called Taiwanese independence is not becoming a sovereign and independent country, but becoming a colony completely subjugated to Japan and the United States.

"Even if we are the dogs of the Americans and Japanese, so what? You can't even be dogs if you want to!"—This is what a Taiwanese person said to me on a Twitch live stream political news chat channel, and it represents the mentality of many Taiwanese people. Taiwanese people's sense of independence is less based on "the pursuit of freedom and not being dependent on anyone" and more on "discrimination against mainland China." It is a product of hate mobilization.

 

[Jack Grealish]

Can one imagine Germans, dressed in Nazi German uniforms from World War II, visiting a church to pay respects to war criminals sentenced to death after the war? What would happen if such a thing occurred? Yet this is something that happens in Japan every year.

Europeans and Americans often fantasize, "If only the Chinese would follow our rules, because we are the most moral." However, these Europeans and Americans fundamentally misunderstand that their self-righteous sense of morality is built on ignorance of the real world. If the Chinese were to completely follow what the Westerners say and problems arise, would those Westerners come to the rescue? Can we pin our hopes on the British to protect us? At most, they might hold one or two rallies and marches in London, or observe a 30-second moment of silence before a football match. Nothing more.

 

[Guno צְבִי]

Can one imagine Germans, dressed in Nazi German uniforms from World War II, visiting a church to pay respects to war criminals sentenced to death after the war? What would happen if such a thing occurred? Yet this is something that happens in Japan every year.

Americans are ignorant of that

 

[NiftyNiblick]

While I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject to comment on the above posts, the reality is that Taiwan does operate as an independent nation, the Taiwanese do consider themselves independent of the PRC, and it's time for the world to recognize this.
This is NOT an anti-PRC sentiment. Recognizing Taiwan as China and not the PRC didn't make any sense either.

Also, as a regular viewer of Asian television on Netflix, the PRC looks, except for not playing much baseball,
culturally more like America in everyday life
than baseball-loving Taiwan, South Korea, or Japan.

I identify with the Taiwanese in a way.
I would love New England and New York to be independent of the USA, given what the USA is like now.
The Democratic Republic of North America!

 

[Jack Grealish]

While I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject to comment on the above posts, the reality is that Taiwan does operate as an independent nation, the Taiwanese do consider themselves independent of the PRC, and it's time for the world to recognize this.
This is NOT an anti-PRC sentiment. Recognizing Taiwan as China and not the PRC didn't make any sense either.

Also, as a regular viewer of Asian television on Netflix, the PRC looks, except for not playing much baseball,
culturally more like America in everyday life
than baseball-loving Taiwan, South Korea, or Japan.

I identify with the Taiwanese in a way.
I would love New England and New York to be independent of the USA, given what the USA is like now.
The Democratic Republic of North America!

The reality is that the Taiwan issue stems from the Chinese Civil War.

The defeated Kuomintang (KMT) fled to Taiwan, which is a province of China.

Then the Korean War broke out, and the US Navy intervened.

The US used military force to prevent the Chinese central government from exercising jurisdiction over all provinces within the country.

Many Americans, like you, believe that if this situation continues long enough, Taiwan, a province temporarily beyond the control of the Chinese central government, should become an independent country.

However, from the Chinese perspective, this is absolutely an act of the US violating China's territorial integrity.

 

[Hawkeye10]

The reality is that the Taiwan issue stems from the Chinese Civil War.

The defeated Kuomintang (KMT) fled to Taiwan, which is a province of China.

Then the Korean War broke out, and the US Navy intervened.

The US used military force to prevent the Chinese central government from exercising jurisdiction over all provinces within the country.

Many Americans, like you, believe that if this situation continues long enough, Taiwan, a province temporarily beyond the control of the Chinese central government, should become an independent country.

However, from the Chinese perspective, this is absolutely an act of the US violating China's territorial integrity.

You did understand that quality is part of the job?

You really suck as an agent of the Demonic Empire.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

The reality is that the Taiwan issue stems from the Chinese Civil War.

The defeated Kuomintang (KMT) fled to Taiwan, which is a province of China.

Then the Korean War broke out, and the US Navy intervened.

The US used military force to prevent the Chinese central government from exercising jurisdiction over all provinces within the country.

Many Americans, like you, believe that if this situation continues long enough, Taiwan, a province temporarily beyond the control of the Chinese central government, should become an independent country.

However, from the Chinese perspective, this is absolutely an act of the US violating China's territorial integrity.

The loss of Taiwan was the price that China paid for militarily supporting North Korea
vs. we militarily supporting South Korea.

There's a parallel with Vietnam.
We tried to stop South Vietnam unifying with North Vietnam when the South Vietnamese people wanted to unify. Unjust interference.

The Chinese tried to stop South Korea from staying independent of North Korea, also against the will of the South Koreans. Unjust interference.
The only difference is that China lost territory for their interference while the US didn't. National boundaries throughout the world have been
shaped by the winning and losing of wars.

Since the Taiwanese want to be and consider themselves a sovereign nation, I feel that they should be recognized.
I also think that the UK fucked up in giving up Hong Kong, which even speaks a different language, Cantonese instead of Mandarin.

 

[Jack Grealish]

The loss of Taiwan was the price that China paid for militarily supporting North Korea
vs. we militarily supporting South Korea.

There's a parallel with Vietnam.
We tried to stop South Vietnam unifying with North Vietnam when the South Vietnamese people wanted to unify. Unjust interference.

The Chinese tried to stop South Korea from staying independent of North Korea, also against the will of the South Koreans. Unjust interference.
The only difference is that China lost territory for their interference while the US didn't. National boundaries throughout the world have been
shaped by the winning and losing of wars.

Since the Taiwanese want to be and consider themselves a sovereign nation, I feel that they should be recognized.
I also think that the UK fucked up in giving up Hong Kong, which even speaks a different language, Cantonese instead of Mandarin.

1. China has not lost Taiwan, because the Taiwanese authorities still identify their country as the Republic of China. There is no country called Taiwan internationally, and the United Nations adheres to the One China principle. Within this framework, the US's role was merely to delay China's reunification process.

2. The Korean War resulted in two separate countries on the Korean Peninsula, each claiming their government should be the government of all of Korea. It wasn't, as you claim, North Korea preventing South Korea from maintaining its independence. It was essentially a proxy war between the US and the Soviet Union. China's strategic intention in intervening in the Korean War was that if North Korea were defeated, US military bases would be directly stationed on the Chinese border, posing a direct threat to China.

3. You might not even realize that Cantonese is widely used in Guangdong Province, mainland China. In fact, the English word for Cantonese is a transliteration of "Guangdong." Cantonese is a dialect, not a language independent of Chinese.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

1. China has not lost Taiwan, because the Taiwanese authorities still identify their country as the Republic of China. There is no country called Taiwan internationally, and the United Nations adheres to the One China principle. Within this framework, the US's role was merely to delay China's reunification process.

2. The Korean War resulted in two separate countries on the Korean Peninsula, each claiming their government should be the government of all of Korea. It wasn't, as you claim, North Korea preventing South Korea from maintaining its independence. It was essentially a proxy war between the US and the Soviet Union. China's strategic intention in intervening in the Korean War was that if North Korea were defeated, US military bases would be directly stationed on the Chinese border, posing a direct threat to China.

3. You might not even realize that Cantonese is widely used in Guangdong Province, mainland China. In fact, the English word for Cantonese is a transliteration of "Guangdong." Cantonese is a dialect, not a language independent of Chinese.

I'll defer to your superior knowledge on the subject,
but still favor the creation of an independent and recognized nation of Taiwan.

The Republic of China and The People's Republic of China are two different names,
and have functioned as separate nations for decades.

Would Taiwan consider adopting a different name--Chinese Republic of Taiwan-- in exchange for recognition as a sovereign nation?
I'll bet that they would.

 

[Matt Dillon]

I once discussed the Taiwan issue and other topics about China with people on a British forum.

One thing that struck me was how casually these British people questioned whether any piece of Chinese territory belonged to China.

Their relaxed and casual tone conveyed the unspoken message that "every piece of Chinese territory should be put in some kind of court, debated, and recognized by Western countries before it can be considered legitimate Chinese territory."

I've mentioned this on Chinese social media, and many people said they've encountered similar situations. I think this is a widespread phenomenon. In the eyes of the British, China shouldn't exist. Their mentality is, "You shouldn't exist, but you do. Okay, for the sake of some cheap shirts, socks, and plastic toys, we can overlook this and reluctantly accept that China exists, but don't forget that China shouldn't exist in the first place."

If the Chinks try to take Taiwan, they get nothing but scorched earth. That's the Taiwanese attitude about it.
They'll be doing nothing but expending energy ruining a good thing. The Taiwanese are serious as can be about that.

 

[Jack Grealish]

I'll defer to your superior knowledge on the subject,
but still favor the creation of an independent and recognized nation of Taiwan.

The Republic of China and The People's Republic of China are two different names,
and have functioned as separate nations for decades.

Would Taiwan consider adopting a different name--Chinese Republic of Taiwan-- in exchange for recognition as a sovereign nation?
I'll bet that they would.

You should know that the Republic of China refers to the vast country that encompassed mainland China, established in 1912.

Within the Republic of China, an armed revolution led by the Chinese Communist Party took place.

After a series of negotiations between the Communist Party and the Kuomintang (KMT), which broke down, a civil war began in June 1946.

The Communist Party called it the War of Liberation—the origin of the name of the Chinese army, the People's Liberation Army.

Of course, the KMT wouldn't call it the War of Liberation; we'll use "Civil War" for now.

The civil war resulted in a victory for the Communist Party over the vast majority of mainland China. While this isn't entirely accurate, it's sufficient for the discussion.

The new regime/country established by the victorious Communist Party is called the People's Republic of China.

China has had many dynasties throughout history. In the Chinese concept of the nation, dynasties may change, but China remains China.

The Chinese believe that the Republic of China, established in 1912 to replace the Qing Dynasty, was superseded by the People's Republic of China in 1949.

The People's Republic of China rightfully inherits and administers all Chinese territory. Here, the Chinese Communist Party's stance is that we only inherit the territory of the Republic of China, not an endless pursuit of historical reconciliation. This is because an endless pursuit of historical territory would lead to tensions with neighboring countries.

The Republic of China is a thing of the past. Under the premise that China's national sovereignty remains intact, the Chinese Communist Party believes the outcome is already decided and there is no need to rush to achieve unification through military means. However, this is predicated on the preservation of China's national sovereignty, namely, the One China framework.

If, one day in the future, the United States is able to unite all European countries to declare a halt to recognition of the One China principle and recognize Taiwan as a sovereign and independent state separate from China, then China will consider its national sovereignty and territorial integrity to be genuinely undermined. War will immediately begin at that moment.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

War will immediately begin at that moment.

It will inevitably begin at some moment, I suspect.
It's unfortunately an inherent trait of the human species.

If it weren't that we were destroying the earth's capacity to sustain any life,
evolution would eventually replace humanity with a more intelligent species.

 

[Jack Grealish]

It will inevitably begin at some moment, I suspect.
It's unfortunately an inherent trait of the human species.

If it weren't that we were destroying the earth's capacity to sustain any life,
evolution would eventually replace humanity with a more intelligent species.

Let me add one last point, from a very realistic perspective.

Even if Taiwan were to become "independent," it wouldn't be the completely harmless member of the "free world family" that the average American imagines. It would be quickly annexed by Japan. This is because the driving force behind Taiwanese independence is the Japanese right wing, or what you could call militarists. Considering the vast majority of people on this forum are Americans, and that it was these same Japanese militarists who attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 and caused countless American deaths in the subsequent Pacific War, the Taiwanese independence movement, now supported by almost all Americans, would simply be pushing things further towards a resurgence of Japanese militarism. This isn't even in America's best interest.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Let me add one last point, from a very realistic perspective.

Even if Taiwan were to become "independent," it wouldn't be the completely harmless member of the "free world family" that the average American imagines. It would be quickly annexed by Japan. This is because the driving force behind Taiwanese independence is the Japanese right wing, or what you could call militarists. Considering the vast majority of people on this forum are Americans, and that it was these same Japanese militarists who attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 and caused countless American deaths in the subsequent Pacific War, the Taiwanese independence movement, now supported by almost all Americans, would simply be pushing things further towards a resurgence of Japanese militarism. This isn't even in America's best interest.

I'm not sure that such is the case but I could be wrong, I suppose.