Church condemns abortion performed on raped girl, 11

[OrnotBitwise]

Yep, but in our legal system the femal holds the trump cards in that game.

And should, IMHO.

 

[Cancel7]

From where I'm sitting, it's authoritarian stuff.

Yeah. They don't get it. And they won't. Very few men would Ornot. Yourself and one or maybe two others on this board would be the only ones.

It's ok. I actually do laugh at them, so it's good for something.

 

[Immanuel]

I agree, but my remaining silent or even allowing the law to show compassion to a victim of rape is not taking a life. I believe in the law being compassionate and realize that I cannot foresee every situation.

Hypothetically if you and I are both lawmakers and without constitutional considerations would you vote yea or nay on a bill I wrote that would make all abortion illegal except to protect the life of the mother? You don't have to loudly proclaim support just your yea or nay.

Hypothetically, I would need to know more about this bill. There must be some leniency and there must be something that takes this out of one "doctor's" hands. A doctor with a clear conflict of interests.

I still disagree with you in the case of Rape. In this case and the life of the mother there must be an exception because there are always extenuating circumstances.

That does not mean that I approve of abortion in the case of rape. It does mean that I realize that there can be circumstances that I have not foreseen. If it were a strick no abortion for any rape, I would have to vote nay but I would not be pleased about it.

Immie

 

[Cancel7]

Darla .. you know each day you are a rising force on the idiot meter.. dontcha?

What do White Dudes have to do with anything when discussing abortion .. what are you implying about this.. lets see if you really know what you are talking about .... lets ge into a demographic discussion on abortion ....

You are, a whiny, hypocritical, pompous, little shit who contributes nothing but "whyyyyyy donnnnnnn''tttt he liberaaaallalalallaaasssss, talk about what the demmmmssssss diiiidddd".

I can't stand you. I stay away from your posts, because I don't like picking on people, but you do not want to get in my face, whinyboy.

Trust me.

As for your demographics of abortion, in which I presume you are going to talk about how many blacks abort compared to whites, that has nothing to do with my comment, which is an obvious statement, and slighty satorical, on how white men still think they are running the show.

You ain't running this one.

Now, pontificate away,, cause it's kinda cute.

 

[Immanuel]

I especially liked Immie's classic, and rather mythical "Mommy doesn't want the baby". It's always "Mommy" who doesn't want the baby in the anti-choicer's mind. And they try and invoke, and quite possibly actually belive, the image of "Daddy" hanging onto the cold, muderous, frigid "Mommy's" leg as she marches off to the abortion clinic, while snicking, and he is begging her "Pleae, please don't abort my baby. you won't have to do anything, I'll pay for every thing and take care of it, please don't do it".

That is not any where near what I said. It was your buddies at The Alan Guttmacher Institute, an arm of Planned Parenthood that gave the details. If you will think about it, they are the one that don't give a damned about the father. In their opinion the father is not worth shit and has no rights at all. There slide presentation doesn't include the father in any of their "reasons" for abortion.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with Planned Parenthood not me.

Immie

 

[Cancel7]

Because I came in and a bunch of white men (actually, I'm not certain you're all white, hyperbole on my part?) were hashing out what would and would not constitute acceptable compromises on abortion.

You would be wrong. However from your statement I will assume you are white. As it is often the case that white people view whiteness as a default and automatic and that minorities are more of a special flavor. Don't be willfully stupid. It is a hallmark of cultural hegemony to assume whiteness, maleness, and straightness as an automatic default when no information is given. My statement was about white men, who, in case you didn't notice IHG, have always held the majority of power in this country. It was satorical. But boy did it rustle all the little feathers here.


I especially liked Immie's classic, and rather mythical "Mommy doesn't want the baby". It's always "Mommy" who doesn't want the baby in the anti-choicer's mind. And they try and invoke, and quite possibly actually belive, the image of "Daddy" hanging onto the cold, muderous, frigid "Mommy's" leg as she marches off to the abortion clinic, while snicking, and he is begging her "Pleae, please don't abort my baby. you won't have to do anything, I'll pay for every thing and take care of it, please don't do it".

On an ineresting side note are you aware that the first wave of feminists Anthony, Mott and Stanton opposed abortion because they saw it as a way for men to control women? It's a bit more complex than that. For instance, the author of the original ERA, Alice Paul, is said to have been "heard by a friend" to have expressed that opinion, however she never wrote any such thing, and the only thing she fought against was having abortion rights linked to the ERA, or to voting rights. She did express that it was not for her to tell women what to do with their freedom, rather it was her duty to ensure they had freedom. That seems to indicate a more pro-choice attitude. As or the others, they were considered out of the loop even by the time far more radical feminists were chaining themselves to the white house fence, and going on hunger strikes in order to get the vote, so...also, the conditions for abortion then were extremely different. It would be pretty impossible to speculate what their beliefs would be today, when abortion is safe, and women are not dying while having them. I mean, if we lived in a time where women were dying on the tables while getting abortions, while the men, most of whom encourage these abortions (which will come as a huge shock to some naive babies here) walked away scott free, guess what? I might have a different outlook on it too. You are making the classic, and I think rather arrogant leap, that you can take something compltely out of time, put it in the modern era, and with everything else about it changed, it would somehow, remain the same. Well, it's not that simple and it doesn't work that way.
Regardless, if you can't see the patronization inherent in six men hashing out abortion rights, that's because you're on the inside. From where I'm sitting, it's funny stuff.

I will be sure to laugh at you should you ever offer an opinion on racial issues then.

I will offer an opinion on racial issues whenever the f I feel like doing it. What I will never do, is sit around shooting the shit with a bunch of white guys, wheeling and dealing about what the acceptable "compromise" is, in order to address and solve racial injustice. As if I knew anything about it, at heart, and as if I had any right, to accept or to dictate terms of any such "compromise. I don't.

 

[Cancel7]

I especially liked Immie's classic, and rather mythical "Mommy doesn't want the baby". It's always "Mommy" who doesn't want the baby in the anti-choicer's mind. And they try and invoke, and quite possibly actually belive, the image of "Daddy" hanging onto the cold, muderous, frigid "Mommy's" leg as she marches off to the abortion clinic, while snicking, and he is begging her "Pleae, please don't abort my baby. you won't have to do anything, I'll pay for every thing and take care of it, please don't do it".

That is not any where near what I said. It was your buddies at The Alan Guttmacher Institute, an arm of Planned Parenthood that gave the details. If you will think about it, they are the one that don't give a damned about the father. In their opinion the father is not worth shit and has no rights at all. There slide presentation doesn't include the father in any of their "reasons" for abortion.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with Planned Parenthood not me.

Immie

Who said "mommy doesn't want it" Immie? Planned Parenthood used those words? I'd like the link to that, and I rarely ask for those. But I'd like to see that Immie.
Because I believe that was YOUR phrasing, exposing your own prejudices on the subject.

And it's fine for you to believe that. But you're wrong.

The men don't want these babies Immie. And that's the way it is out in the real world. Yes, I am certain that you can find a woman who went and had an abortion even though the man involved wanted the baby. It happens.

But not often. It is the exception, it is not the rule. So my question to you is, why is this face put onto women who have abortions, by the majority of so-called pro-lifers? Why do they need to believe that women are cold, and that women are merciless, and further, that women are castrating bitches, because that is what this myth comes down to.

The man is dying to have the baby,, and the cold woman, not only overules him, but completely emasculates him by not even considering his opinion, but rather, coldly and mockingly disregarding it. Why?

What does that tell you about the average pro-lifer? Does it tell you that they respect women? That they care for women? That they have the woman's best interests at heart?

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Who said "mommy doesn't want it" Immie? Planned Parenthood used those words? I'd like the link to that, and I rarely ask for those. But I'd like to see that Immie.
Because I believe that was YOUR phrasing, exposing your own prejudices on the subject.

And it's fine for you to believe that. But you're wrong.

The men don't want these babies Immie. And that's the way it is out in the real world. Yes, I am certain that you can find a woman who went and had an abortion even though the man involved wanted the baby. It happens.

But not often. It is the exception, it is not the rule. So my question to you is, why is this face put onto women who have abortions, by the majority of so-called pro-lifers? Why do they need to believe that women are cold, and that women are merciless, and further, that women are castrating bitches, because that is what this myth comes down to.

The man is dying to have the baby,, and the cold woman, not only overules him, but completely emasculates him by not even considering his opinion, but rather, coldly and mockingly disregarding it. Why?

What does that tell you about the average pro-lifer? Does it tell you that they respect women? That they care for women? That they have the woman's best interests at heart?

I'd rather not make any assumptions or generalizations about why someone chooses to have an abortion -- or chooses not to, for that matter. The fact is that I don't know, in any specific case. Not unless I'm right there and possibly not even then.

 

[Cancel7]

I'd rather not make any assumptions or generalizations about why someone chooses to have an abortion -- or chooses not to, for that matter. The fact is that I don't know, in any specific case. Not unless I'm right there and possibly not even then.

I've been right there, more than once. I knew why. Is it true for all? No, there is no always and no never. (that's something m drilled into my head, you know, because of "you always, you never" which i can do with the best of them baby)

There's a short story which Hemingway wrote, entitled "the conversation"

It's brilliant. And it's about just this.

 

[Immanuel]

Who said "mommy doesn't want it" Immie? Planned Parenthood used those words? I'd like the link to that, and I rarely ask for those. But I'd like to see that Immie.
Because I believe that was YOUR phrasing, exposing your own prejudices on the subject.

And it's fine for you to believe that. But you're wrong.

The men don't want these babies Immie. And that's the way it is out in the real world. Yes, I am certain that you can find a woman who went and had an abortion even though the man involved wanted the baby. It happens.

But not often. It is the exception, it is not the rule. So my question to you is, why is this face put onto women who have abortions, by the majority of so-called pro-lifers? Why do they need to believe that women are cold, and that women are merciless, and further, that women are castrating bitches, because that is what this myth comes down to.

The man is dying to have the baby,, and the cold woman, not only overules him, but completely emasculates him by not even considering his opinion, but rather, coldly and mockingly disregarding it. Why?

What does that tell you about the average pro-lifer? Does it tell you that they respect women? That they care for women? That they have the woman's best interests at heart?

No, it was my rephrasing of the reasons they gave. I went looking for the link and PP has updated the slide presentation and removed the slide giving the reasons for abortion. I wonder why?

Here is the updated slide presentation. Updated in 2006, the one I had was updated in 2001.

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/abslides/abort_slides.pdf

Here are some stats and a link that I got off of about.com when I found the abortion slides presentation from Planned Parenthood.

Abortion Statistics:

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

Number of abortion performed worldwide annually: 46 million

Number of abortion performed in the U.S. Annually 1.37 million.

In 1973 there were 774,600. In 1996 the number rose to 1,365,700 down from a high in 1990 of 1,608,600 according to the Alan Guttmacher (recognize the name?)Institute.


Abortion Statistics - Decision to Have an Abortion (U.S.)
• 25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing
• 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby<
• 14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child
• 12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy)
• 10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career
• 7.9% of women want no (more) children
• 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health
• 2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health

I had this file saved from before. I don't know what the new link says or if it even works. This part was copied and pasted from an old file that I had and was nearly identical to the slide presented by PP.

Regardless if you look at the stats from about.com you will see that 94% of abortions are not in anyway related to the health of either the mother or the fetus and none of it relates to the desires of the father. Remember according to the bastards at PP and AGI the father doesn't count.

I am not in anyway excusing the fathers. They are as guilty as the mother because in the vast majority of cases if the father would support the mother and be there then it would relieve most of the worries that the mother experiences. Sometimes it is the father's wishes or lack of "manhood" that brings about an abortion. Sometimes the mother's wishes, concerns or fear and sometimes it is both but the reasons given (and this was the discussion) were only for the mother's decision because according to those bastards the daddy doesn't count.

"So my question to you is, why is this face put onto women who have abortions, by the majority of so-called pro-lifers? Why do they need to believe that women are cold, and that women are merciless, and further, that women are castrating bitches, because that is what this myth comes down to."

I don't know. You will have to find someone who really believes that. Good luck, I don't think many besides maybe Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell actually believe that trash you just came up with.

I do not in anyway excuse the man in these situations. They are just as responsible for that babies life as the mother (unless in the few cases, they actually want the baby but the mother refuses). Many, many times the bastard lets the woman make the decision and take all the heat for it. I don't excuse that nor do I approve of that.

I myself have never been in the situation where the issue came up. Thank God. I guess that is the great thing about being in a monogamous relationship with the woman you love and not cheating on her.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

And maybe if the laws were changed and abortion was made illegal then not only should the doctor and woman be punished for the "crime" but the father of the aborted fetus as well.

Note: I am not suggesting that abortion be made a crime and anyone be punished for it. Personally, I think if it were illegal then a doctor performing the abortion should lose his license to practice medicine. I'm up in the air about punishing the women... because I think abortion is first and foremost societies fault.

Immie

 

[Johnney]

Church condemns abortion performed on raped girl, 11

Sibylla Brodzinsky in Bogotá
Thursday August 31, 2006
The Guardian

A Vatican official has said the Catholic church will excommunicate a medical team who performed Colombia's first legal abortion on an 11-year-old girl, who was eight weeks pregnant after being raped by her stepfather.

Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, the president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, said in addition to the doctors and nurses, the measure could apply to "relatives, politicians and lawmakers" whom he called "protagonists in this abominable crime".

For complete story goto:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/colombia/story/0,,1861532,00.html

and this is why the church isnt running the state. the catholics dont have too much room to talk. i guess if this was a little buy screwing contest they would all be lined up asshole to elbow to enter. but when some little girl gets it, doesnt want it (or her parents dont want it), its a different story.

personally, if (and when) i have alittle girl and some atrocity like that happens, the bastards going to be dead. then she will get an abortion.

 

[klaatu]

You are, a whiny, hypocritical, pompous, little shit who contributes nothing but "whyyyyyy donnnnnnn''tttt he liberaaaallalalallaaasssss, talk about what the demmmmssssss diiiidddd".

I can't stand you. I stay away from your posts, because I don't like picking on people, but you do not want to get in my face, whinyboy.

Trust me.

As for your demographics of abortion, in which I presume you are going to talk about how many blacks abort compared to whites, that has nothing to do with my comment, which is an obvious statement, and slighty satorical, on how white men still think they are running the show.

You ain't running this one.

Now, pontificate away,, cause it's kinda cute.

Nice thread... very intelligent .... you want to stay away because you get called out for whom you really are.. and you just cant handle the truth....


"I can't stand you" ROFLMAO!!!!

 

[klaatu]

Yep, but in our legal system the femal holds the trump cards in that game.

I dont consider the "right to life" a game..... The trump card is the right to be born ..... this is not a religous issue as some would like to pretend. This is an an extremely difficult discussion on personal responsibility as pertaining to the life of another Human Being.

In an earlier thread maineman pointed out the fear he has on this issue if the SC were to stray too far right with religous fanatics ... and I retorted with the opposite scenerio .... what if we had a SC leaning too far left with a bunch of Souless wonders.... I think Darla's reaction in this thread inserts an exclamation mark on my statement... fits it like a glove ....
IOW ... the Woman has full control all the way up to the moment of birth..without regard to the other persons life involved. The baby that would be ..is nothing more than a fetus ... she and others of her ilk..like to play .."lets make us feel better deal" we will insist the baby is only a fetus... thus it is not murder... but a surgical procedure that fits into acceptable Science.... now doesnt that make us all "feel" a little bit better about ourselves?

 

[Care4all]

And maybe if the laws were changed and abortion was made illegal then not only should the doctor and woman be punished for the "crime" but the father of the aborted fetus as well.

Note: I am not suggesting that abortion be made a crime and anyone be punished for it. Personally, I think if it were illegal then a doctor performing the abortion should lose his license to practice medicine. I'm up in the air about punishing the women... because I think abortion is first and foremost societies fault.

Immie

why don't we just make sex outside of marriage illegal for ALL men/boys....that'll solve your abortion problem real quick! (sarcasm turned off)

 

[OrnotBitwise]

why don't we just make sex outside of marriage illegal for ALL men/boys....that'll solve your abortion problem real quick! (sarcasm turned off)

Actually, I'm sure that's exactly what some of the wackos way, way out in the flats of the bell curve want. Only they'd make it a misdemeanor for men and a major felony for women.