Confederacy: check. Now on to colonialism

StoneByStone said:
That's such bullshit. If someone built a statue of Osama Bin Laden looking badass near Ground Zero, we'd all say it's tasteless and offensive. Nobody would say it's just a visual synopsis of what happened on 9/11.
It's funny, in the former Soviet countries, people tear down statues of Stalin and the only people who have a problem with it are Communists and Imperialists. Now I wonder why Conservatives don't want us to take down statues celebrating Colonialism. :thinking:

And using the word "Lefties" so much is cringe.
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You libturds always run to comparing American statues with foreigners. Then, you run to other countries and what they did or do.
Only an idiot would even think of putting a statue of bin laden on American soil. Right? Don't compare America with other countries, or especially terrorists.

Can you answer this?

Why are you offended by statues, images on food products, names, etc.? How does it hurt?
 
Darth Omar said:
Simplistic is such a good word lol.

Apparently, when some people see that statue of Roosevelt they see something other than Roosevelt leading people[s?] into the civilized world. Apparently, they’re stuck on the idea that Roosevelt was white while the other figures were ‘of color’.

The obsession with race causes them to miss the whole point. Everything is viewed through the prism of race [maybe that’s why we can’t get past it??].

And the irony is none of the colonialized countries are in a hurry to go back to their pre-colonial state; and not a single one of the ‘offended’ would have any desire, whatsoever, to go back in time and live there if they could.
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colonialism was like anything else that is a force of history.
It's not good or bad, (it just IS) but it has facets of both

Like discovering the New Word is still a problem for some -get over it,
and study it instead for understanding of the past
 
anatta said:
colonialism was like anything else that is a force of history.
It's not good or bad, (it just IS) but it has facets of both

Like discovering the New Word is still a problem for some -get over it,
and study it instead for understanding of the past
Click to expand...

Discovering the New World is another one.

Would people rather it wasn’t discovered lol? Say the indigenous were left alone. Do people understand the indigenous were barbarians by modern standards? They can’t have a problem with that moral *judgement* can they?

If we are going judge [white] people from the past by today’s moral standards—the native American culture was clearly barbaric.

So, how was it supposed to turn out without white European colonialism? Prior to the settlers getting here the continent was divvied up by Indian tribes. Like virtually all tribes, everywhere, they fought amongst themselves and did all the nasty things warring tribes do.

[why do we get the idea this isn’t covered in the history books?]

So, by today, this country would resemble most parts of Africa. Well no, by today the ‘USA’ would have been conquered by *somebody*. Way too many natural resources here for it to be left alone for that long. My guess would be China or perhaps Muslims.

Happy thought, eh wokies?

Actually, probably Muslims. Muslims were a lot closer and during the colonial era they were active sailing around off North Africa. Thomas Jefferson [canceled] knew all about it. It was only a matter of time before they discovered the Trade Winds and road them right up to the shores of the ‘USA’.

Maybe history is better left alone.
 
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Darth Omar said:
Discovering the New World is another one.

Would people rather it wasn’t discovered lol? Say the indigenous were left alone. Do people understand the indigenous were barbarians by modern standards? They can’t have a problem with that moral *judgement* can they?

If we are going judge [white] people from the past by today’s moral standards—the native American culture was clearly barbaric.

So, how was it supposed to turn out without white European colonialism? Prior to the settlers getting here the continent was divvied up by Indian tribes. Like virtually all tribes, everywhere, they fought amongst themselves and did all the nasty things warring tribes do.

[why do we get the idea this isn’t covered in the history books?]

So, by today, this country would resemble most parts of Africa. Well no, by today the ‘USA’ would have been conquered by *somebody*. Way too many natural resources here for it to be left alone for that long. My guess would be China or perhaps Muslims.

Happy thought, eh wokies?

Actually, probably Muslims. Muslims were a lot closer and during the colonial era they were active sailing around off North Africa. Thomas Jefferson [canceled] knew all about it. It was only a matter of time before they discovered the Trade Winds and road them right up to the shores of the ‘USA’.

Maybe history is better left alone.
Click to expand...
ya. my guess is as good as yours -Islam is a good guess
Of course there WAS European and western colonialism-why deny it? and it also bought the "benefits"
( good and bad) of civilization
Maybe history is better left alone.
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look at it as a set piece of it's time, then look at the times in the contest of world history.
Everything is a matter of perspective -the wider your perspective the better you understand context
 
Hello Darth,

Darth Omar said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1274816919250636801

How far will the wokies take us?
Click to expand...

We are still fighting the Civil War.

Part of the process is removing the symbols of oppression.

We don't want our society to be all about oppression.

We want our society to be about equality.

REAL equality.

Not just equality in the law, but equality in the hearts of citizens.

It doesn't work to simply change laws. Resentment and attitudes have to change.

We have to move beyond hatred. We have to see the possibilities. We have to see that by suppressing blacks, we are cutting ourselves off from great human potential, and instead turning that potential human capital into a festering infection that destroys our society from within.

We simply have to finish the Civil War.

We have to realize Lincoln's Dream.

It is a dream that was cut short when he was assassinated.

We have unfinished national business.
 
PoliTalker said:
We are still fighting the Civil War. Part of the process is removing the symbols of oppression.
We don't want our society to be all about oppression.

We want our society to be about equality. REAL equality.
Not just equality in the law, but equality in the hearts of citizens.

It doesn't work to simply change laws. Resentment and attitudes have to change.

We have to move beyond hatred. We have to see the possibilities.
We have to see that by suppressing blacks, we are cutting ourselves off from great human potential, and instead turning that potential human capital into a festering infection that destroys our society from within.

We simply have to finish the Civil War.We have to realize Lincoln's Dream.
It is a dream that was cut short when he was assassinated.
We have unfinished national business.
Click to expand...

bolded this view of "unfinished business"
driving some kind of woke of emancipation where emancipation is never realized
 
Darth Omar said:
What do you mean ‘celebrate’?

It’s a depiction: a visual synopsis of what actually happened. Removing the monument doesn’t change history. Western civilization spread, in no small part, via colonialism. Is that a good thing or bad thing? Leave it to people to decide for themselves when they view it.

Lefties have become very illiberal over the past decade or so.
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History happened. The celebration of its nastier bits is sick. Actually it has little to do with politics - it's just a matter of decency. Why do you want to insult and offend people with these nasty objects? It is like putting up statues to your murderous police.
 
Hello Darth Omar,

Darth Omar said:
When the NYT says ‘long promoted objections’ that translates into one group or even several persons making noise about the monument for five years or whatever.

But we are subject to their rule, so no use complaining.
Click to expand...

BS. If there were no complaining then what are you doing with this discussion?

We need to hear all views. We have zero obligation to enact all of them.
 
Hello Darth,

Darth Omar said:
Roosevelt’s contribution to history begins and ends with colonialism lol?

Do we have to partake in self-imposed historical ignorance to celebrate this?
Click to expand...

Roosevelt is not being erased. The image and symbolism of a white man on a horse with minorities walking is not the way we want to live.

We CAN'T live like that.

We have had enough of that.
 
Hello BartenderElite,

BartenderElite said:
I reckon I'll care when I care. I'm not going to force myself to.

The whole "erasing history" thing is made up, imo. The history books are the history books. It's all still accessible.
Click to expand...

I agree. Fear of erasing history is a dumb argument.

Humans have writing. Events are recorded. We don't need statues to keep history from being lost.
 
Hello Darth,

Darth Omar said:
But still, we’ve moved onto colonialism.

Do any of the colonies want to revert back to their pre-colonial days? Are any of the ‘offended’ rushing to go back to the colonies their putative ancestors came from?

Help me to understand this.
Click to expand...

Are you proud of what we've done with Puerto Rico?

That place could be a shining jewel of the Caribbean. Instead it is a sweltering pit of poverty. Because we have raped it in true colonial fashion. Taken everything possible from her, left her with misery.
 
Hello Darth,

Darth Omar said:
Simplistic is such a good word lol.

Apparently, when some people see that statue of Roosevelt they see something other than Roosevelt leading people[s?] into the civilized world. Apparently, they’re stuck on the idea that Roosevelt was white while the other figures were ‘of color’.

The obsession with race causes them to miss the whole point. Everything is viewed through the prism of race [maybe that’s why we can’t get past it??].

And the irony is none of the colonialized countries are in a hurry to go back to their pre-colonial state; and not a single one of the ‘offended’ would have any desire, whatsoever, to go back in time and live there if they could.
Click to expand...

Here's the message of the times:

Until hatred stops guiding our country it is going to be race in the face.

Fix it or get used to it.
 
Hello Darth,

Darth Omar said:
Discovering the New World is another one.

Would people rather it wasn’t discovered lol? Say the indigenous were left alone. Do people understand the indigenous were barbarians by modern standards? They can’t have a problem with that moral *judgement* can they?

If we are going judge [white] people from the past by today’s moral standards—the native American culture was clearly barbaric.

So, how was it supposed to turn out without white European colonialism? Prior to the settlers getting here the continent was divvied up by Indian tribes. Like virtually all tribes, everywhere, they fought amongst themselves and did all the nasty things warring tribes do.

[why do we get the idea this isn’t covered in the history books?]

So, by today, this country would resemble most parts of Africa. Well no, by today the ‘USA’ would have been conquered by *somebody*. Way too many natural resources here for it to be left alone for that long. My guess would be China or perhaps Muslims.

Happy thought, eh wokies?

Actually, probably Muslims. Muslims were a lot closer and during the colonial era they were active sailing around off North Africa. Thomas Jefferson [canceled] knew all about it. It was only a matter of time before they discovered the Trade Winds and road them right up to the shores of the ‘USA’.

Maybe history is better left alone.
Click to expand...

History is best learned from that the worst parts are not repeated over and over again, and the best parts are built upon and expanded.

And btw, your interpretation of Native Americans is crude. Plenty of tribes were peaceful and far more respectful of nature than we have been.
 
BartenderElite said:
I don't agree w/ what they're doing, or even care that much.

But really, it's 2 weeks of the shoe being on the other foot. And it was on the original foot for centuries.
Click to expand...

It has been a lot longer than two weeks sport. This attack on American history and America has been going on for several years. They are almost finished wiping away all reminders of the Civil War so now it's time to start on colonialism. It won't be long till they demand the destruction of the Declaration of Independence as a reminder of the white mans stealing this country from the Indians, and Mexico.
 
Eagle_Eye said:
It has been a lot longer than two weeks sport. This attack on American history and America has been going on for several years. They are almost finished wiping away all reminders of the Civil War so now it's time to start on colonialism. It won't be long till they demand the destruction of the Declaration of Independence as a reminder of the white mans stealing this country from the Indians, and Mexico.
Click to expand...

Dammo - the buggers will be claiming equality next! Is there no end to their wicked Marxism? :)
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Darth,
History is best learned from that the worst parts are not repeated over and over again, and the best parts are built upon and expanded.

And btw, your interpretation of Native Americans is crude. Plenty of tribes were peaceful and far more respectful of nature than we have been.
Click to expand...

Have you been indoctrinated with the myth of the noble savage?
____________

The significance of warfare varied tremendously among the hundreds of pre‐Columbian Native American societies, and its meanings and implications changed dramatically for all of them after European contact. Among the more densely populated Eastern Woodland cultures, warfare often served as a means of coping with grief and depopulation. Such conflict, commonly known as a “mourning war,” usually began at the behest of women who had lost a son or husband and desired the group's male warriors to capture individuals from other groups who could replace those they had lost. Captives might help maintain a stable population or appease the grief of bereaved relatives: if the women of the tribe so demanded, captives would be ritually tortured, sometimes to death if the captive was deemed unfit for adoption into the tribe. Because the aim in warfare was to acquire captives, quick raids, as opposed to pitched battles, predominated. Warfare in Eastern Woodland cultures also allowed young males to acquire prestige or status through the demonstration of martial skill and courage. Conflicts among these groups thus stemmed as much from internal social reasons as from external relations with neighbors. Territory and commerce provided little impetus to fight.

https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780195071986.001.0001/acref-9780195071986-e-0618
_____________

It’s a myth. All primitive cultures had barbaric practices; fought amongst themselves in nasty ways; practiced torture; often times child sacrifice and etc.

Even the ones of color. If you were ‘taught’ otherwise—you were lied to.
 
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