That depends. I assume God could always do it.
How, or on what, is excluding logical contradictions a "limit"?
Could A Good God Permit So Much Suffering?
- Thread starter Hume
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That depends. I assume God could always do it.
How, or on what, is excluding logical contradictions a "limit"?
It seems self evident to me that omnipotence is limited because it cannot include logical contradiction.
God cannot grant free will on the one hand, but then take away the ability to choose sin. That's a contradiction. Just review this thread. People on this thread have claimed God could grant free will, but then make it that sin and evil aren't possible.
That's assigning an omnipotence to God he doesn't have.
You originally said we could have tried a demonstration detonation, so you didn't know the US did not have enough enriched nuclear material for that. There's no shame in admitting you read what I wrote and then did Google research. I guess I didn't remember if uranium or plutonium were the limiting factor. The important thing is that a demonstration detonation was not feasible because we didn't have sufficient enriched nuclear material.
Why would atheists take it upon themselves to teach and lecture Christians how to interpret their teachings and scripture? Why would you care, and why would you invest the time and effort?
Yes, if "omnipotence" is defined as including the logically impossible, which is a ridiculous, self defeating way to define it, as in "God can make up be down."
What I meant by wordplay.
So when people say God is omnipotent and can do anything, that is actually incorrect.
God can only do that which does not defy the rules of formal logic.
Naturally, some people consider this trivial nonsense, but if this were a formal logic class, it wouldn't be considered nonsense. This would be considered a key distinction in training the mind to think better and use language better.
I’ve studied college level logic. Imposing logical impossibility on the theory of omnipotence is indeed nonsense.
For what it’s worth I just looked up Google’s AI answer to this question. Here it is:
“No, most philosophical definitions of omnipotence do not include the ability to do the logically impossible, because a logically impossible act is by definition something that cannot be done. The inability to perform logical impossibilities is not considered a limitation on omnipotence, but rather a constraint of logic itself.
“No, most philosophical definitions of omnipotence do not include the ability to do the logically impossible, because a logically impossible act is by definition something that cannot be done. The inability to perform logical impossibilities is not considered a limitation on omnipotence, but rather a constraint of logic itself.
I brought it up because a claim was made on this thread that God could grant free will, but also take away the ability to choose to sin/evil.
That is the kind of omnipotence God cannot have, and it's the kind of omnipotence that some posters seem to feel God has.
I think it’s not omnipotence at all, nor can it be free will. It’s someone playing with words to make a silly claim.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Given that the creator of the Universe made the rules, I have to ask myself why such a creator would choose to violate those rules. IMO, an honest creator wouldn't. They'd play by the rules set.
The omnipotence paradox has been discussed for centuries by theologians and philosophers, so I doubt it is widely considered a silly game by the subject matter experts.
The Oxford Dictionary describes omnipotence as unlimited power and the ability to do anything.
It doesn't provide any caveats or limitations.
It's only when people started thinking about omnipotence in a sophisticated way that a long standing debate broke out about what omnipotence really means, and if it is limited by the rules of logic.
From the biblical stories, it seems that God can temporarily suspend the laws of nature (resurrection from the dead, walking on water, etc.), but I don't think his power and omnipotence can defy the laws of logic. A claim was made here earlier that God should be able to grant free will, but then suspend the ability to choose sin/evil. That's a logical contradiction.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Anything written by man is flawed. We're talking about the writings of desert nomads from 4000 years ago....albeit modified up to 1700 years ago. I wouldn't treat it as "gospel". <---pun intended.
Logic was invented by the creator, whatever that might be. The rules of the Universe are what they are. Roll with it.
Right, limited by the rules of logic, that is, the meaning of the word is so limited, not its capacity.
Into the Night
Verified User
So you don't want free will. You want to be a slave.
Into the Night
Verified User
What makes you think resurrection suspends the laws of nature, Sybil?
I’m familiar with the paradox. There’s no great depth to it. It’s a word game. As for The Oxford Dictionary (Webster’s too) what is the definition of “anything” in the context of omnipotence? Also a word game. Our thinking is at the mercy of words when we let it be.
I'm talking about the Christian God of the Bible, not the God as interpreted by historians or secular humanists.
The God believed in by Christians clearly can suspend the laws of nature temporarily. But I don't think he can defy the laws of logic.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
I understand what they believed. The Greeks believed thunder was Zeus tossing thunderbolts from Olympus. MAGAts believe raping girls over 13 is A-Okay.
My position is that an entity capable of creating the Universe did so for a reason. It would be illogical for that entity to violate their own creation.
There is zero evidence of life-after-death, magic, miracles or anything else that violates the laws of physics. All of which indicates there's a reason why those rules are not being broken even if the entity could choose to do so.