Could A Good God Permit So Much Suffering?

Saying"divine nature" covers a lot of territory including a human who has insights to God or the supernatural. A palm reader can be seen as having a "divine nature". :)

The doctrine of the Trinity is central to most Christian denominations and faith groups, although not all. The term Trinity is not found in the Bible, and the concept is not easy to grasp or explain. Yet most conservative, evangelical Bible scholars agree that the Trinity doctrine is clearly expressed within Scripture....

....9 Non-trinitarian Faiths
The following religions are among those that reject the doctrine of the Trinity. The list is not exhaustive but encompasses several of the major groups and religious movements. Included is a brief explanation of each group's beliefs about the nature of God, revealing a deviation from the Trinity doctrine.
Right, the Trinity wasn't doctrine until the 4th century. But even before then, all major early first and second century Christian groups considered Jesus to be more than a man. They thought he was divine.

I thought you were making the case that Christians could just view Jesus as nothing but a human teacher. That's what Muslims believe, but I don't know of any early or traditional Xtian groups that thought that.

The deists and Universalists thought Jesus was just a human teacher for sure.
 
Right, the Trinity wasn't doctrine until the 4th century. But even before then, all major early first and second century Christian groups considered Jesus to be more than a man. They thought he was divine.

I thought you were making the case that Christians could just view Jesus as nothing but a human teacher. That's what Muslims believe, but I don't know of any early or traditional Xtian groups that thought that.

The deists and Universalists thought Jesus was just a human teacher for sure.
The resurrection a major part of the myth. As you and I have discussed before, it's possible for a human man to have survived that relatively short time on the cross including being stabbed in the side.
 
Right, the Trinity wasn't doctrine until the 4th century. But even before then, all major early first and second century Christian groups considered Jesus to be more than a man. They thought he was divine.

I thought you were making the case that Christians could just view Jesus as nothing but a human teacher. That's what Muslims believe, but I don't know of any early or traditional Xtian groups that thought that.

The deists and Universalists thought Jesus was just a human teacher for sure.
but if you take morality as the important aspect of religion, these paranormal facets don't come into play.

:truestory:

youre an ignorant masonic fuckstick.
 
I thought you were making the case that Christians could just view Jesus as nothing but a human teacher. That's what Muslims believe, but I don't know of any early or traditional Xtian groups that thought that.

To my knowledge there is none. It would be nice if the teachings were primary but standard Christian salvation comes from accepting that one is in need of salvation, that Jesus is the lord and savior and you must accept his sacrifice for your sins.

In many ways Christianity becomes less about the teachings than the performative act of "belief". Which I think is a loss, but it does help those Christians who love Jesus but also love guns, for instance.

 
I am unfamiliar with ANY sect of Christianity that espouses that. Which group is it?
Scroll up. I've posted links to non-trinitarian churches twice.

On a similar note, Muslims are part of the Abrahamic religions and regard Jesus as a prophet.

Again, atheists only whine about the Christians not other religions. LOL
 
To my knowledge there is none. It would be nice if the teachings were primary but standard Christian salvation comes from accepting that one is in need of salvation, that Jesus is the lord and savior and you must accept his sacrifice for your sins.

In many ways Christianity becomes less about the teachings than the performative act of "belief". Which I think is a loss, but it does help those Christians who love Jesus but also love guns, for instance.
Again, scroll up. 2000 years of history have seen the current version of Christianity to dominate all the others by killing them off as heretics. Just because you don't see many Native Americans running around doesn't mean they never existed, gmark. Same goes for non-divinity Christians.

Oliver Cromwell used the Bible to justify mass killing of Catholics in Ireland. It was a devastating attack.

The Biblical account of Joshua and the Battle of Jericho was used to justify genocide against Catholics by Oliver Cromwell.[46]: 3 [47] Daniel Chirot, professor of Russian and Eurasian studies at the University of Washington,[48] interprets 1 Samuel 15:1–3 as "the sentiment, so clearly expressed, that because a historical wrong was committed, justice demands genocidal retribution."[46]: 7–8

Cromwell's hostility to the Irish was religious as well as political. He was passionately opposed to the Catholic Church, which he saw as denying the primacy of the Bible in favour of papal and clerical authority, and which he blamed for suspected tyranny and persecution of Protestants in continental Europe....

....After he landed at Dublin on 15 August 1649 (itself only recently defended from an Irish and English Royalist attack at the Battle of Rathmines), Cromwell took the fortified port towns of Drogheda and Wexford to secure the supply lines from England. At the Siege of Drogheda in September 1649, his troops killed nearly 3,500 people after the town's capture—around 2,700 Royalist soldiers and all the men in the town carrying arms, including some civilians, prisoners and Roman Catholic priests.....

...At the Siege of Wexford in October, another massacre took place under confused circumstances. While Cromwell was apparently trying to negotiate surrender terms, some of his soldiers broke into the town, killed 2,000 Irish troops and up to 1,500 civilians and burned much of the town.
 
They write extensively about other religions esp Islam.
Yet very few atheists, including you, attack Islam or the Jews like Christianity. Either they are all wrong or you are playing favorites. :)

Worse, lots of atheists include Buddhists in their numbers. It's really funny because, as you should know, I ❤️ Irony. :rofl2: :laugh::laugh::rofl2:
 
Yet very few atheists, including you, attack Islam or the Jews like Christianity.

A couple points here:

1) we currently live in the West which means the dominant religion and certainly the one I know best is Christianity. So obviously my choice of discussion will probably skew to Christianity as opposed to Islam. But then i'm not all atheists.

2) I actually have been going up against a more "deistic" God concept in my conversations with you and Cypress. I wouldn't say I'm 100% Christian focused. I've generally discussed the God hypothesis often completely absent the Christian structure.


Either they are all wrong or you are playing favorites. :)

No, I've just read a lot of atheist writers and I can say with 100% certainty that they are not all aiming at just Christianity.

Worse, lots of atheists include Buddhists in their numbers.

I thought that there were strains of Buddhism that dispense with any "god" concept.

I think that's why Sam Harris is open to Eastern "religions" but only insofar as they contain more self-improvement (meditation etc.) as opposed to some belief in the supernatural. Personally I'm kinda "meh" about that in general. I see the value of meditation and I'm assuming it can and is done quite "secularly" without reference to the supernatural. But any extension beyond the physical makes me uncomfortable philosophically.
 
Again, scroll up. 2000 years of history have seen the current version of Christianity to dominate all the others by killing them off as heretics.

Oh I agree. But because I don't believe in the supernatural I don't believe there is a "proper" version of Christianity. It is ALL made-up in my view, so all the councils like Nicaea etc that set up the "orthodoxy" are exactly the same as the ideas that were heretical. All just made up magical stuff that has no bearing on reality.

Which is why they can "create" new things like the Trinity or why they can evolve God from the OT version to the NT version.
 
A couple points here:

1) we currently live in the West which means the dominant religion and certainly the one I know best is Christianity. So obviously my choice of discussion will probably skew to Christianity as opposed to Islam. But then i'm not all atheists.

2) I actually have been going up against a more "deistic" God concept in my conversations with you and Cypress. I wouldn't say I'm 100% Christian focused. I've generally discussed the God hypothesis often completely absent the Christian structure.




No, I've just read a lot of atheist writers and I can say with 100% certainty that they are not all aiming at just Christianity.



I thought that there were strains of Buddhism that dispense with any "god" concept.

I think that's why Sam Harris is open to Eastern "religions" but only insofar as they contain more self-improvement (meditation etc.) as opposed to some belief in the supernatural. Personally I'm kinda "meh" about that in general. I see the value of meditation and I'm assuming it can and is done quite "secularly" without reference to the supernatural. But any extension beyond the physical makes me uncomfortable philosophically.
1. No shit. That's my point. You are common among atheists. I've been online since 1986 and have been chatting with both atheists and theists for over 25 years. Again, tell me something new. LOL

2. No worries. Lots of atheists hate Christianity. IMO, it's a form of rebelling against their parents. :)

Any atheist that believes in an afterlife or other form of existence beyond the physical is not an atheist. They're just a chickenshit using the argument of "prove God exists" while believing in something they can't prove themselves. LOL
 
Oh I agree. But because I don't believe in the supernatural I don't believe there is a "proper" version of Christianity. It is ALL made-up in my view, so all the councils like Nicaea etc that set up the "orthodoxy" are exactly the same as the ideas that were heretical. All just made up magical stuff that has no bearing on reality.

Which is why they can "create" new things like the Trinity or why they can evolve God from the OT version to the NT version.
Buddhists believe in the supernatural. Ergo, atheists claiming Buddhists as fellow atheists is bullshit.

You'll get no argument from me that the writings of desert nomads from 4000 years ago or even 2000 years ago aren't the most sophisticated witnesses. The Bible, like all ancient religious texts is human perception of events. Very unsophisticated perceptions like Norsemen believing thunder was Thor's hammer.
 
2. No worries. Lots of atheists hate Christianity. IMO, it's a form of rebelling against their parents. :)

I don't hate Christianity! LOL. Far from it! All of my friends are Christians and I used to be one. It's a cheap and easy thing to assume that because one is atheist that one must also "hate Christianity". Couldn't be less true in my case.

There's actually a fuckton of stuff I love in Christianity. I even kinda dig the "salvation" idea. Not the supernatural stuff but the idea that we should always be cognizant that we are less-than-perfect creatures and we can hurt others without even thinking about it. Christianity's message inspires you to be better and do better. I think if we all understood that each other is flawed that we will act kinder towards each other and we will, in turn, be treated kindly for our flaws.

 
Buddhists believe in the supernatural. Ergo, atheists claiming Buddhists as fellow atheists is bullshit.
Americans tend to get their information about Buddhism from Hollywood stars and west coast urban hipster gurus. These kind of people may be incorporating Buddhist meditation and ritual practices into their lives. But these Californians and New Yorkers are not representative of the vast majority of Buddhists in the world.

Samara, or reincarnation is just as supernatural at face value as anything in the New Testament. Coming back to your next life as a bug is a hard concept to grasp.

Buddhism does not venerate a specific creator God, but the classic Buddhist canon definitely accepts the reality of spirits, demons, and dieties.
 
If the rational design, order, creation, and beauty of the universe really does point to something like a god, a Tao, a universal spirit, an eternal logos then it's not paranormal. It's part of the ultimate reality of life, the universe, and everything.
here's what I actually said:

but if you take morality as the important aspect of religion, these paranormal facets don't come into play.
 
I don't hate Christianity! LOL. Far from it! All of my friends are Christians and I used to be one. It's a cheap and easy thing to assume that because one is atheist that one must also "hate Christianity". Couldn't be less true in my case.

There's actually a fuckton of stuff I love in Christianity. I even kinda dig the "salvation" idea. Not the supernatural stuff but the idea that we should always be cognizant that we are less-than-perfect creatures and we can hurt others without even thinking about it. Christianity's message inspires you to be better and do better. I think if we all understood that each other is flawed that we will act kinder towards each other and we will, in turn, be treated kindly for our flaws.
Thanks for the info but it seem contrary to the tone of your previous comments about Christians but I may have confused a few with @domer76 's.
 
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