Democratic Socialist Demands Free Housing

I couldn't disagree more completely. It's not because we don't have the resources, we may, I don't believe human nature will not allow it.

I understand that you disagree with me completely, Yakuda. That happens. We can continue to discuss the issue...or break off if you prefer.

I most assuredly am not a communist or do I advocate communism. I am a dedicated Capitalist...hoping that capitalism can save itself from itself. I suspect that the way we Americans are abusing capitalism will lead to the destruction of the notion...which would be a negative for humanity.

The "distribution" I am talking about has no more resemblance to the "distribution notions" of communism than walruses resemble fleas.

So...do you want to continue or do you want to end this discussion?
What your suggesting here is a distribution of resources. I'm not saying you're a communist but communism sought to create the kind of situation I think you're describing here. Where everyone has what they need. Let me ask you if you think stalin ever stood in line for toilet paper? I'm not being snarky but it's important that someone has to make the choices and the ones who do hold the reigns of power. James Madison said:

"If men were angels no government would be necessary. If angles were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this; you must first enable the government to control the governed and the next place, oblige it to control itself." From my experience the government is much better that the former than the latter.
 
I understand that you disagree with me completely, Yakuda. That happens. We can continue to discuss the issue...or break off if you prefer.

I most assuredly am not a communist or do I advocate communism. I am a dedicated Capitalist...hoping that capitalism can save itself from itself. I suspect that the way we Americans are abusing capitalism will lead to the destruction of the notion...which would be a negative for humanity.

The "distribution" I am talking about has no more resemblance to the "distribution notions" of communism than walruses resemble fleas.

So...do you want to continue or do you want to end this discussion?
I have no problem with disagreement I have a problem with smartasses. I've been respectful have I not? That's because you have been and I will be as long as you are.

Well we will have to discuss what we each mean by capitalism because from my perspective it doesn't appear as though your stance is rooted in capitalism. I am open to being corrected.

I just said we need to discuss what we each mean by capitalism. Ad to "distribution", from my perspective that should be based mostly on what you work for. No one owes you anything more just as you don't owe anything more to anyone else.
 
I have no problem with disagreement I have a problem with smartasses. I've been respectful have I not? That's because you have been and I will be as long as you are.

I think we have both been respectful and I am enjoying the discussion. I doubt we will agree on most of the items...we are worlds apart in our world view for that. But it would be great if we could reach some sort of agreement on a few.

Just wanted to give you an option to cut-off. Glad you are continuing.

Well we will have to discuss what we each mean by capitalism because from my perspective it doesn't appear as though your stance is rooted in capitalism. I am open to being corrected.

I am absolutely an advocate of capitalism...and I personally think that communism and socialism...as strict disciplines will never work. I also am as sure that capitalism as a strict discipline will not work. Communism, socialism and capitalism, in my opinion, only work when they become amalgams of some sort. It is my further opinion that capitalism and free enterprise must dominate. Not sure how to get that across more strongly, but I am being truthful with you about that. (Accepting that may take some thinking outside the box that you are not yet willing to tolerate. You may never be...and may never be able to accept that I fundamentally advocate for a capitalistic system, BUT ONLY AFTER EVERYONE HAS SUFFICIENT.)
I just said we need to discuss what we each mean by capitalism.

I am almost certain I am willing to accept your definition. Tell me what it is...and why you think I am not accepting of it.


Ad to "distribution", from my perspective that should be based mostly on what you work for.

Well for me...distribution is about distribution...whether one works for it or not. When you play bridge...you start by DISTRIBUTING the cards. No one works for it...it is simply the way the game starts.

The "perspective" of which you speak is a political sensibility...not a part of the definition of "distribution."

Not sure if we can get past that.


No one owes you anything more just as you don't owe anything more to anyone else.
Once again, this is a description of a political perspective. It has nothing to do with the definition of "distribution." I strongly...VERY STRONGLY...disagree with your political perspective, but we are not discussing that right now.
 
I think we have both been respectful and I am enjoying the discussion. I doubt we will agree on most of the items...we are worlds apart in our world view for that. But it would be great if we could reach some sort of agreement on a few.

Just wanted to give you an option to cut-off. Glad you are continuing.



I am absolutely an advocate of capitalism...and I personally think that communism and socialism...as strict disciplines will never work. I also am as sure that capitalism as a strict discipline will not work. Communism, socialism and capitalism, in my opinion, only work when they become amalgams of some sort. It is my further opinion that capitalism and free enterprise must dominate. Not sure how to get that across more strongly, but I am being truthful with you about that. (Accepting that may take some thinking outside the box that you are not yet willing to tolerate. You may never be...and may never be able to accept that I fundamentally advocate for a capitalistic system, BUT ONLY AFTER EVERYONE HAS SUFFICIENT.)


I am almost certain I am willing to accept your definition. Tell me what it is...and why you think I am not accepting of it.




Well for me...distribution is about distribution...whether one works for it or not. When you play bridge...you start by DISTRIBUTING the cards. No one works for it...it is simply the way the game starts.

The "perspective" of which you speak is a political sensibility...not a part of the definition of "distribution."

Not sure if we can get past that.



Once again, this is a description of a political perspective. It has nothing to do with the definition of "distribution." I strongly...VERY STRONGLY...disagree with your political perspective, but we are not discussing that right now.
I am enjoying it as well. I think we already agree we would like for people not to be in need the differences really seem to be in how we achieve that end.

I have no problem believing you think you're absolutely an advocate for capitalism why I question it is what you said at the end there, that you advocate for a capitalistic system, but only after everyone has sufficient. In my view Capitalism is the ONLY system that even remotely has a chance to help everyone have enough. There is no other system that could generate the production necessary to offer sufficient to anyone.

My definition of capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. I suspect you see that as source of greed. As I said I'm open to being corrected.

That's a fine analogy but someone had to make the cards you're distributing. By the way I'm not opposed to socialism but it seems to work best in small limited and relatively self contained circumstances. One good example are Catholic religious orders like the Fransicians or the Dominicans. Small limited and relatively self contained.

I don't understand getting something you haven't worked for unless you are unable to work. That's the basis for a healthy society.

I don't believe it's a political perspective. People need to contribute something otherwise they are a drain on the larger group. The more people there are that present a drain on the group the harder the group has to work to take care of everyone. That's not long term sustainable option.

Just to be clear I'm not making any personal judgment about people who don't contribute I'm merely pointing out the more people who dont help carry the load only add to the load. It would be like trying to push a car down the road but there are people still sitting in the car doing nothing. At least get out of the car, even if you don't push, so its not unnecessarily harder for the people why are actually pushing it.
 
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Yes. The people who made that money have every right to do what they please with it in terms of giving it away when they die. The government has no right to it. In fact, I'd call inheritance taxes theft.


Again, the person who made the money at some point did so and who they marry is their choice.


That's fine too. You, I, or anybody else is free to do with their own money what they want with it

The problem comes when the government forcibly takes someone's money and then uses it not for the common good of all, but to prop up someone in particular.


Doing meaningful work that returns both pay to the person doing it and is beneficial to society, however marginally.


Yes. Prostitution is generally illegal because of other issues it creates, not because it's done for money.


If they were unwilling to work when it was offered and they were capable, yes. For the mentally ill and otherwise genuinely handicapped, we should have care in an institutionalized setting for them where they can be taken care of properly. Those are not the person's fault. Note: Stupid, illiterate, lazy, and mendacious are NOT handicaps. They are self-inflicted.


I'm willing to bet a majority would vote for it. "Workfare" isn't a new idea. In fact, Clinton signed a bill requiring that into law when he was president.


I see no reason to coddle the undeserving and unwilling.


Anecdote is not evidence.


Stupid is a leading cause of people being in prison. It's a leading cause of crime.


I would not advocate for make-work. Work should be productive regardless of how menial it may appear.


Lazy long ago in terms of a job often got you beaten or killed by your peers if not your overseers.


If that's the case we should just by woodchippers and toss them in. Much cheaper than keeping them around.


I don't agree with it.


No problem. That is what this board should be about after all.

New jobs and things to do are nearly continuously invented. There was a Twilight Zone episode, among other science fiction, that looked at that issue. A big part of the problem now is that there are almost onerous labor laws that make employment of the marginally productive difficult or impossible to do.

For example, about twenty years ago, Progressives in Arizona managed to get a higher minimum wage on the ballot and it passed. The wage was also tied to the cost of living index meaning it went up each year incrementally. The law they wrote had no room for exceptions. Everybody got the wage who worked at minimum wage.

One of the issues that immediately cropped up was there were a number of companies that employed the handicapped and severely handicapped doing simple tasks like stuffing envelopes or simple assembly of something they could manage. This included people who were blind, wheelchair bound, limited mobility, or having restrictions on what they could do with their hands. These businesses were previously exempted from minimum wage as they wouldn't otherwise be profitable. Most employed their workers part time and accommodated their schedules of things like medical care and the like. The workers often felt a real satisfaction in having something to do and making a contribution to society.

The new minimum wage law, which the advocates said would raise these worker's wages found instead that the companies went out of business and terminated all of their employees. They simply couldn't pay them what was demanded by law and make even a small profit, which was all they previously made.

My position is that we should be trying to maximize the utilization of people in our society for its betterment. We should not coddle or tolerate those who choose to be lazy and / or stupid. We should NOT encourage an Idiocracy. Socialism encourages an Idiocracy.
so when AI lays off 90% of workers they should all be put into woodchippers?

There is apparently no upside to AI.

that's why the whole fetid pile of AI lies is collapsing.
 
I couldn't agree more but I'm actually trying to have a reasoned discussion with Francis there. So far so good but the idea of sufficient and enough is meaningless but I'm trying to work with the reasoning I am given. He seems to think the earth has inexhaustible resources to provide everyone on earth with what would be considered sufficient or enough
It's the same stupidity that thinks humans are simply interchangeable cogs, that everyone can do college level, or even high school level work. It's the stuff Participation trophies is made of.
 
I am enjoying it as well. I think we already agree we would like for people not to be in need the differences really seem to be in how we achieve that end.

Important point...that we agree that we would like for people not to be in need.

I have no problem believing you think you're absolutely an advocate for capitalism why I question it is what you said at the end there, that you advocate for a capitalistic system, but only after everyone has sufficient.

I can do no more that tell you that I DO advocate for a capitalistic system...and that I consider free enterprise as essential to a flourishing economy. I also am of the opinion that we Americans are corrupting capitalism to the point where it will be our ruin. Therefore I am advocating for "everyone must have sufficient" as a prerequisite in order to keep it functioning reasonably. Without that proviso, capitalism will eventually destroy itself. A VERY FEW will own so much of the wealth of the nation, there essentially will be nothing left for the bottom 99%.
In my view Capitalism is the ONLY system that even remotely has a chance to help everyone have enough. There is no other system that could generate the production necessary to offer sufficient to anyone.

That sounds rather gratuitous to me, but I acknowledge that you do view things that way. I suspect that a more socialistic economy can fare well if plenty of free enterprise is introduced...which is something the Chinese have realized and allowed.

My definition of capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. I suspect you see that as source of greed. As I said I'm open to being corrected.

I don't necessarily see it as a source of greed, but I see it setting conditions for people to be greedy enough to corrupt the system. It is being corrupted right now here in America. The top 1% already own 10X what the bottom 50% own. If you want to suppose the top 1% got that advantage over the bottom half of the nation because they worked 10 times harder/smarter than the bottom half...fine with me. I respectfully disagree.

That's a fine analogy but someone had to make the cards you're distributing. By the way I'm not opposed to socialism but it seems to work best in small limited and relatively self contained circumstances. One good example are Catholic religious orders like the Fransicians or the Dominicans. Small limited and relatively self contained.

And China...although China is not as small as the Franciscans or the Dominicans.
I don't understand getting something you haven't worked for unless you are unable to work. That's the basis for a healthy society.

That is a political perspective and it is a reasonable one, but has very little to do with what we are discussing at the moment. We will NEVER come close to resolving our political differences right now.

I don't believe it's a political perspective. People need to contribute something otherwise they are a drain on the larger group.

Not necessarily. And to suppose that "staying out of the way and not interfering with the production effort" is not contributing is, in my opinion, missing an important point. IT IS CONTRIBUTING.

The more people there are that present a drain on the group the harder the group has to work to take care of everyone. That's not long term sustainable option.

See above.
Just to be clear I'm not making any personal judgment about people who don't contribute I'm merely pointing out the more people who dont help carry the load only add to the load.

As I said earlier in this thread, there are people who would help productivity by just staying out of the way. I am sure you have seen them in your working life...people who are part of the work-force who drain the productivity effort by "contributing."

If you haven't...tell me you haven't...and I will relate stories that show what I mean with no trouble.
It would be like trying to push a car down the road but there are people still sitting in the car doing nothing. At least get out of the car, even if you don't push, so its not unnecessarily harder for the people why are actually pushing it.
Yes...that is what I am saying. Get out of the car; stay out of the way. Help the production effort by contributing efficient work...or help the production effort by staying out of the way.

I just am not willing to tell them that they must die if they choose that second choice.
 
We are in disagreement there. Like it or not, guys like Bezos and Musk are what move progress and wealth for a great many, not everyone, but many, forward. Sure, they make billions. But there are lots of others that make hundreds of thousands to millions because of them. They don't profit in a vacuum where they're the only one making all the money.
they are human trash held aloft by genocidal central bankers to create a totalitarian control grid / all encompasing murder machine.


you're trash too.
 
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