Into the Night
Verified User
He is, but God will not override free agency.
Despite bible thumpers whining we keep finding transitional fossils
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Daylight63
Verified User
Agreed. Atheism is the lack of belief.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
I didn't quite understand this, but at first I read it as something along the lines of God letting Jesus become a free agent and not overriding his decision by producing a signed covenant. Yes, I was fairly certain that Jesus would be remaining on the team, because the Trinity really wouldn't be the same without him, ... but could I get you to elaborate a little on what you wrote? I'm not parsing it very well.
Into the Night
Verified User
Free agency is simply the ability to choose.
You are free to choose. You are not free of the consequences of that choice.
God is about the freedom to choose. Even Adam and Eve were given the freedom to choose, and to deal with the consequences of their choice.
Christ was also given the freedom to choose. Perhaps you'll recall the time when Satan tempted Christ.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Gotcha. Thanks. Is there any difference between free agency and free will?
Eagle_Eye
Well-known member
AMarine Corps veteran was temporarily booted off a Delta plane for wearing a T-shirt that a flight attendant described as "threatening," reports say.
Catherine Banks told NBC Bay Area that she was preparing to visit her sister last Wednesday when she was stopped at San Francisco International Airport over her shirt that read "Do not give in to the war within. End veteran suicide."
"A male flight attendant was saying, 'Ma'am, ma'am.' I looked around, like, 'Who was he talking to?' And it was me. He said, 'You need to get off the plane,' and I was like, 'What did I do?'" Banks told the station.
"He said that shirt you're wearing is threatening," Banks continued, recalling a conversation she says she had with the Delta employee. "I said, 'Are you kidding me? I'm a Marine Corps vet. I'm going to see my Marine sister. I've been in the Marine Corps for 22 years and worked for the Air Force for 15 years. I'm going to visit her.' He said, 'I don't care about your service, and I don't care about her service. The only way you're going to get back on the plane is if you take it off right now.'"
Daylight63
Verified User
Here's my MANLY COMPARISON STORY: I was once touring an art museum and I was wearing a t-shirt that had a mildy funny, edgy comment but nothing over the top (I can't even remember what it was now). Remember...this was an ART museum...where offensive things often show up. One of the elder docents kicked me out because she was offended by my t-shirt.
Actually this story about Delta, if true is APPALLING.
Eagle_Eye
Well-known member
It was reported by a major news outlet so I must assume it's true. Considering some of the outragious apparel issues rejected by flight attendants maybe the airlines should post what is not acceptable to wear on their flights.
Daylight63
Verified User
Geez. It's so fractally wrong what Delta appears to have done. The t-shirt was highlighting a dead-serious topic many in America deal with and HUGE numbers in our military. Telling someone that message is offensive enough to be booted off a flight is kind of sickening. I think there's going to have to be some SERIOUS corporate training for these folks.
Isn't it enough in America that we leave our men and women in uniform to deal with their agony on their own now we have to demonize people pointing out the issue????
Into the Night
Verified User
Not a lot, but there is one significant one:
Free will is something you can choose to lose. Some choose to live under slavery or in a prison, for example. Some choose, after suffering from that, to claw their way back to liberty, or free will. But the free agency is still there. A slave or prisoner must choose to free themselves. Until they do so, they remain without free will, being a slave or prisoner.
Daylight63
Verified User
There seems to be some evidence from neuroscience that free will as we currently understand it doesn't exist.
It's troubling to say the least but when you look at the studies and understand how the brain functions at a basic level it also kinda makes sense.
It's not like everything is PREDETERMINED, but rather that our "choices" are often just post-hoc justifications developed by the Left side of the brain acting as an "interpreter module" which occurs AFTER we start the action.
Some pretty wild stuff in neuroscience.
Science has nothing to say about free will. They cannot even define it.
Daylight63
Verified User
Actually there's a goodly amount of research on this very thing. It's been studied at length in what are called "split brain" patients. Patients who had their corpus collosums cut to treat seizure disorders. Dr. Michael Gazzaniga from UC Santa Barbara wrote a book not too long ago about the implications. Neuroscientists ARE studying this very thing!
It's super unsettling what they are finding but it's CRAZY WEIRD to see how the brain functions at that level.
Basically what they are finding is that there's a part of the Left Hemisphere that seems to integrate all the things going on and comes up with an explanation for it. But when the Right brain and the Left brain don't talk and you expose information only to the Right brain the body may respond but the Left hemisphere doesn't know why it did that but it comes up with an ad hoc explanation for it.
It's some super weird science.
Taichiliberal
Shaken, not stirred!
If one wants to truly see the lengths to which the "religious" folk will go to in denying and revising history and facts to suit their dogma, then they have to go no further than Petersburg, KY and catch the Creation Museum ... a "life size recreation" of Noah's Ark. I kid you not.
I'd like to visit both of those, plus the museum of the Bible in Washington DC, as a research project to get a sense of the way people thought in the 16th century. : )
Daylight63
Verified User
I feel sorry for Kentucky when Ken Hamm meandered into town looking for a pay day. He played them like suckers. When the Ark Encounter didn't quite make the bank he was counting on he found ways to screw the state and violate some tax incentive requirements for his grift.
I'm all for people having whatever faith they want. But making amusement parks and acting like it is all in service to one's version of "God" in order to make a buck or two is kind of beyond the pale.
But in the end Ham isn't even close to the vileness of Hovind.
(Sorry for the rant. But the Creation Museum topic hits a bit too close to home for me)
Daylight63
Verified User
The Creation Museum and the Ark Encounter are really nothing more than amusement parks glorifying anti-science. I'd save my money if I were you.
That's the one funded by the Hobby Lobby folks, isn't it? That family has some issues. They loudly proclaim their sincerely held religious beliefs which they then leverage to eliminate critical healthcare for some women employees. But their religious beliefs don't stop them from lying to make money (they were found guilty of fraud by the NY AG for their business practices, so you know that "truth" is not one of their values. They also were found to be involved in smuggling antiquities out of the Middle East so theft IS one of their values. And, of course, most of their goods are from China so they explicitly support an authoritarian dictatorship to make their nut.
(Sorry, this is a bit of a thing for me. I would be OK with the Green family if they were at least consistent even if I disagreed with them, but to use one's religion as a cover to do the most unreligious things just reeks of wolf in sheep's clothing.)
LOL. That's good!
Into the Night
Verified User
Science is not 'evidence'. Science is not data.
Into the Night
Verified User
Abortion is not healthcare.The Creation Museum and the Ark Encounter are really nothing more than amusement parks glorifying anti-science. I'd save my money if I were you.
That's the one funded by the Hobby Lobby folks, isn't it? That family has some issues. They loudly proclaim their sincerely held religious beliefs which they then leverage to eliminate critical healthcare for some women employees. But their religious beliefs don't stop them from lying to make money (they were found guilty of fraud by the NY AG for their business practices, so you know that "truth" is not one of their values. They also were found to be involved in smuggling antiquities out of the Middle East so theft IS one of their values. And, of course, most of their goods are from China so they explicitly support an authoritarian dictatorship to make their nut.
(Sorry, this is a bit of a thing for me. I would be OK with the Green family if they were at least consistent even if I disagreed with them, but to use one's religion as a cover to do the most unreligious things just reeks of wolf in sheep's clothing.)
LOL. That's good!
Daylight63
Verified User
I don't know what that means.