APP - Do biological viruses actually exist?

No, -you- are back to the "Grand conspiracy thing". I'm just poining out that people tend to believe things with little to no evidence, much as many do with most religions, so long as there are authority figures they trust who say it's true.
Which people are you referring to that are believing things with little to no evidence?

Those who believe in biological viruses. Make note that I was amoung this group for most of my life- only after Covid started and I heard that there were researchers who no longer believed in biological viruses did I start looking into the lack of solid evidence that this was the case.
 
You may find the following interesting:
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With these preconditions firmly established, it is easy to see how the CDC can manufacture and steer a measles outbreak so that it appears as if it was instigated from outside of the US and spread through the unvaccinated. All they need is to alert clinicians in order to have them identify anyone unvaccinated who presents with nonspecific symptoms, such as a fever and a rash, that may have recently been a traveler or been in contact with one. They can then use unreliable laboratory tests to “confirm” that the case is measles rather than any of the other identical conditions it would have been pegged as prior to the alert. from an “endemic” country. Now that the curtain has pulled back, and the trick has been exposed, it is time to cancel this magic show once and for all.
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Source:

I know, a lot of those other alleged "causes" are also biological viruses, but not all of them.
I will say, I find it interesting because the part I highlighted shows how your sources rely not on science and facts but instead on innuendo and false claims.

You have presented no evidence that the CDC has done this. There is more evidence that viruses exist than the silly claim your source makes about CDC faking measles outbreaks.
 
No, I'm not a flat earther. Please get your facts straight.
But you are a virus denier, which is the same mentality. Your position ignores factual information in order to come to an unsupported conclusion based on poor and pseudoscientific information sources that do not employ the scientific process, say things like "with these preconditions established" when they have never been previously mentioned let alone established, rely almost entirely on incorrectly assuming correlation equals causation, flat ignore inconvenient information like DNA (literally asking "what DNA?" then ignoring responses), and finally, like every other pseudoscientific conspiracy theory, you rely on the existence of a vast multinational conspiracy involving every single government of the world, even the ones that disagree with each other in everything except apparently lying to Scott, and every single scientist in the field without regard to human nature, who also do not agree on everything but all of them apparently agree that they have the urge to lie to Scott.
 
@Scott


You may find the following interesting:
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The CDC admits that it is difficult to diagnose any vaccinated person with measles due to the unreliability of the tests.
That is not what they say. They say it's difficult to diagnose without a test because the visible symptoms are similar to other infections:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) states that measles can be difficult to diagnose due to symptoms overlapping with other illnesses, such as other viral infections, and the possibility of vaccine reactions mimicking the disease. A doctor may suspect measles if a patient has a fever, cough, runny nose, and conjunctivitis, along with a characteristic rash. However, definitive diagnosis requires a laboratory test to detect measles RNA or measles-specific IgM antibodies in a patient's blood or a respiratory or urine specimen

Perhaps this is why most vaccinated individuals are presumed “immune” to measles and testing is saved for the unvaccinated? Regardless, the CDC acknowledges that even if a measles case is seen at a physician’s office, it is most likely not a “true” measles case even if it meets the clinical definition.
Link to support this?
The only reason to suspect measles is if the person is unvaccinated and came into contact with traveler's from abroad.
Wrong. The outbreak in Southern Texas was spread among a small community of Americans.
Granted, the CDC does say that cases of “high suspicion” should be investigated.
Obviously since the Measles VIRUS is highly contagious.
However, this is only if other causes have been ruled out first, such as parvovirus, dengue, Kawasaki disease, scarlet fever, and rubella.

“In the measles post-elimination era, most cases of febrile rash illness seen in physician’s offices that meet the clinical case definition will not be measles. However, health care providers should maintain a high index of suspicion for measles in clinically compatible cases especially among unvaccinated persons and among persons who recently traveled abroad or who have had contact with persons such as travelers or international visitors. In addition, not every sporadic measles case is linked to a known importation, so cases that raise high suspicion of measles, irrespective of associated risk factors, should be investigated for measles unless an alternative diagnosis is likely (e.g., known epidemiological link to a parvovirus case).
It is important to consider measles in the differential diagnoses of parvovirus, dengue, Kawasaki disease, and scarlet fever. In addition, when evaluating patients with suspected measles who have negative tests for acute measles infection, additional testing for rubella can be considered."

The list of potential diagnoses for the same symptoms of disease is much longer than what the CDC provided. Going back to the MN Department of Health, a more comprehensive list of diseases, both “infectious” and “non-infectious,” presenting with measles-like symptoms is outlined. As these diseases all have similar features to measles, they all must be ruled out before a measles diagnosis can be made and “confirmed:”

“Providers should also consider other infectious and non-infectious etiologies that may cause fever and generalized rash, including:
  • Rubella, Scarlet fever, Roseola infantum, Kawasaki disease, Erythema infectiosum (Fifth Disease), Coxsackievirus, Echovirus, Epstein-Barr virus, HIV, Pharyngoconjunctival fever, Influenza
  • Dengue, Rocky Mountain spotted fever, Zika virus
  • Dermatologic manifestations of Viral hemorrhagic fevers
  • Toxic Shock Syndrome, cutaneous syphilis
  • Drug reactions (e.g., antibiotics, contact dermatitis)
As can be seen from the above information, we are left with quite a few preconditions that must be satisfied in order for a new measles outbreak to be declared.

  1. The CDC must issue an alert for healthcare workers to start looking for measles cases.
  2. Testing should be limited to those who meet the case definition and are unvaccinated, have a recent history of travel abroad, and are without an alternate explanation for symptoms.
  3. Those with a history of previous measles “infection” or vaccination should be presumed to be “immune.”
  4. Many clinicians do not know what a measles case looks like, so clinical diagnosis is unreliable, and it must be “confirmed” via unreliable tests.
  5. The long list of similar diseases presenting with the same symptoms must be ruled out via differential diagnosis first before “confirming” a measles case.
  6. A suspected measles case in someone vaccinated must meet the clinical case definition and be linked to a laboratory case in order to be a “confirmed” case.
With these preconditions firmly established, it is easy to see how the CDC can manufacture and steer a measles outbreak so that it appears as if it was instigated from outside of the US and spread through the unvaccinated. All they need is to alert clinicians in order to have them identify anyone unvaccinated who presents with nonspecific symptoms, such as a fever and a rash, that may have recently been a traveler or been in contact with one. They can then use unreliable laboratory tests to “confirm” that the case is measles rather than any of the other identical conditions it would have been pegged as prior to the alert. If someone who is vaccinated slips through as a suspected case, they make it difficult to confirm them as a measles case by blaming the unreliable tests and the vaccinated status and/or the presumed “immunity.” Thus, a measles outbreak can be steered away from the vaccinated and pinned on any unvaccinated individual when they would have normally been diagnosed with any of the other conditions presenting with a fever, a maculopapular rash, and nonspecific symptoms of disease. Voila! The CDC gets to declare a measles “outbreak” in the unvaccinated instigated from contact coming outside from an “endemic” country. Now that the curtain has pulled back, and the trick has been exposed, it is time to cancel this magic show once and for all.
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Source:

I know, a lot of those other alleged "causes" are also biological viruses, but not all of them.
Again, this is very simple - in order to be sure, a test is needed.... per the CDC:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) states that measles can be difficult to diagnose due to symptoms overlapping with other illnesses, such as other viral infections, and the possibility of vaccine reactions mimicking the disease. A doctor may suspect measles if a patient has a fever, cough, runny nose, and conjunctivitis, along with a characteristic rash. However, definitive diagnosis requires a laboratory test to detect measles RNA or measles-specific IgM antibodies in a patient's blood or a respiratory or urine specimen


Unless I'm missing something, all this does is say: a) the Measles virus exists and b) the Measles virus is highly contagious, so it's important to report cases and c) to be sure it's measles, a test is needed.

These are all things that we already knew.
 
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I could say something similar to you- that you believe biological viruses exist because you're prone to believe authority figures who tell you they exist.
Correct. If I go to a doctor because of some pain I have and he diagnosis the issue and says "This looks like tendonitis". I'm probably going to believe him because, yes, he is an expert.

I think that issues of inflammation, which is what "itis" means when added to the end of a body part, are generally straightforward. The problem comes when it comes to so called infectious diseases. Now, I'd like to make something clear, which I think played a role in my being able to consider the possibility that biological viruses didn't actualy exist. Since I was young, my mother had some respect forms of medicine that weren't part of the allopathic method, and, I believe, a slight distrust of the allopathic system. You may not have heard of the term, so I'll quote Wikipedia on it:
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Allopathic medicine, or allopathy, from Ancient Greek ἄλλος (állos), meaning "other", and πάθος (páthos), meaning "pain", is an archaic and derogatory label originally used by 19th-century homeopaths to describe heroic medicine, the precursor of modern evidence-based medicine. There are regional variations in usage of the term. In the United States, the term is sometimes used to contrast with osteopathic medicine, especially in the field of medical education. In India, the term is used to distinguish conventional modern medicine from Siddha medicine, Ayurveda, homeopathy, Unani and other alternative and traditional medicine traditions, especially when comparing treatments and drugs.
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As children, I and my eldest sister still got vaccines, at least initially, so we were still part of the allopathic system, but my mother said that she found that I really didn't do well with vaccines. To this day, I don't like needles, even just to draw blood, and I suspect that this is where my aversion to this came from. At the age of 11, I was diagnosed with typhoid by a team of doctors. I was only in the hospital for a few days, but I was doing pretty badly. I left the hospital in a wheelchair and it took me months to recuperate- I think getting to the bathroom was as much as I could do in terms of walking initially. I wish I knew then what I know now, namely that though typhoid is a bacteria, and thus something I believe in, someone who is healthy has little to fear from it:
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In the early 1900s, there was a Canadian doctor who experimented with millions of the so-called deadly pathogenic bacteria of diphtheria, typhoid, pneumonia, meningitis, and tuberculosis. Anywhere from 50,000 to several millions of these bacteria were contained within the cultures that were ultimately swallowed by the volunteers. However, not a single one of them ever came down with disease over the course of the five years of experimentation.
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Source:

In any case, my mother and I definitely became more interested in alternative forms of medicine as the years went by. I ended up reading 3 books from Jonn Matsen. Here's the description of how he came to get into alternative medicine, from the back cover of his first book, Eating Alive:
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Dr. Jonn Matsen developed poor circulation in his fingers during his late teens that could have led to amputation. He began exploring health and healing. Dr. Matsen became a Chartered Herbalist in 1976. Later, in 1983, he graduated from the John Bastyr College of Naturopathic Medicine in Seattle, Washington. Since then he has operated the North Shore Naturopathic Clinic in North Vancouver, British Columbia.
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What I really liked about Jonn Matsen's books is that he didn't discount a lot of the research being done in the medical field. Rather, he complimented it with effective healing techniques that stretch back thousands of years.

He also exposed me to the metaphorical witch hunts that were done in the name of allopathic medicine. I even copied part of what he wrote on this to my computer because I thought it was quite good. I'll quote from it now, starting from page 142 of his first book, Eating Alive:
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The depletion of health in many children can be readily reversed, asshown in the letters from patients. The expensive of naturopathic medicine is not high. Few of my patients pay over a few hundreddollars for their care at my clinic. Not only did they receive relief of chronic disease that was considered incurable, but they alsoreceived a lifelong understanding, as they now know what caused their health problems and what to do to prevent these from returning. Education, not expensive technology, is the key to health.

This is not to say there is no place for high-tech medicine. There is not a diagnostic device, drug or surgical technique that doesn't have a time and a place to be used to someone's advantage. Remember that itis the results of disease that are being dealt with, not the causes.

Since no doctor, type of practice or philosophy of healing can help every patient or every type of problem, it's important that there be a variety of approaches to the treatment of disease. A person who slips through the "safety net" of one mode of healing might still have hope that another practitioner with different experiences and insights might catch them and help them back to health.


(comic picture of a guy on a tightrope, with a naturopathic below him, a family doctor below him, and 2 guys with a stretcher below him)

Naturopathic medicine is time-proven. Its therapies are rooted in antiquity. Hippocrates stated "let food be your medicine, and medicine be your food". All cultures have used herbs, hot and cold, fasting and diet to maintain health over thousands of generations. Few of the drugs and surgical methods used in western medicine are over ahundred years old, yet during that period of time naturopathicmedicine was almost eliminated.

During the last 50 years, "miracle drugs" and surgical techniqueswere to rescue helpless humanity forever from the perils of disease.As Big Medicine took over the responsibility for health, the voicesthat spoke of obvious connections between lifestyle and disease weredrowned out by the thundering stampede to junk food and irresponsiblelifestyle. During the era of big fin cars, suburbia, ice cream withevery meal and a pill for every ill, a purge of "unscientific"medicine began in the political halls and courts of North America.The almost hysterical self-righteousness of the medical professionand its political clout overwhelmed lifestyle-oriented physicians.Rights to practice were withdrawn in state after state, untilnaturopathy was confined mainly to a few Pacific Northwest states anda few Canadian provinces.


[cartoon picture of a medical doctor setting a light to a bonfire thing withpeople labelled "midwives", "naturopaths","homeopaths" and "herbalists"]

Thatthe demise of alternative practictioners in the U.S. has beenhigh-handed is well-documented. The following is the initial decisionby the Administrative Law Judge, Ernest G. Barnes, Docket No. 9064,dated November 13, 1978:

"The Federal Court determined that the AMA has produced formidable impediment to competition in the delivery of health care services by physicians in this country. That barrier has served to deprive consumers of the free flow of information about the availability of health care services, to deter the offering of innovative forms ofhealth care delivery that could potentially pose a threat to the income of fee-for-services physicians in private practice. The costs to the public in terms of less expensive or even, perhaps, moreimproved forms of medical services are great."

In Canada, similar events took place. In his book "Canadian Medicine: A study in Limited Entry", Ronald Homowy summarizes:

"The following study's conclusions dispute the widely held belief that thevarious statutes and regulations raising the requirements for medical licensure were, in the first instance, enacted to protect the public from so-called incompetents. The historical data provide substantial evidence that the profession's motives in raising the standards ofentry in medical practice and in instituting policies that prohibited advertising or any sort of price competition were almost purely ones of economic interest.... It is foolish to suppose that their occupation exalts them above using the means at their disposal to act in their own private interests."

The depletion of health in many children can be readily reversed, asshown in the letters from patients. The expense of naturopathic medicine is not high. Few of my patients pay over a few hundred dollars for their care at my clinic [
his sessions are like $20 for 15minutes- i had 2 when i went there. medicine cost a lot more then the sessions- maybe $150].. Not only did they receive relief of chronic disease that was considered incurable, but they also received a lifelong understanding, as they now know what caused their health problems and what to do to prevent these from returning. Education,not expensive technology, is the key to health.

[comic picture of a modern day michelangelo having completed a stone worksaying "education is the key to health"]

Thisis not to say there is no place for high-tech medicine. There is nota diagnostic device, drug or surgical technique that doesn't have atime and a place to be used to someone's advantage. Remember thoughthat it is the results of disease being dealt with, not the causes.

Sinceno doctor, type of practice or philosophy of healing can help everypatient or every type of problem, it's important that there be avariety of approaches to the treatment of disease. A person who slipsthrough the "safety net" of one mode of healing might stillhave hope that another practitioner with different experiences andinsights might catch them and help them back to health.

Naturopathictraining includes as much basic medical science as any health-careprofession. Research is an important part of the naturopathiccolleges. The quality of naturopathic education and a more openpolitical environment have resulted in the passing of new laws inrecent years in Washington, Oregon, Arizona and Alaska that haveexpanded the rights of naturopathic physicians to practice. Manyother states are also considering expanding or relicensing thistraditional approach to health care.

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I could say something similar to you- that you believe biological viruses exist because you're prone to believe authority figures who tell you they exist. We will get nowhere in the discussion, though. To actually move forward in the discussion, we need to look at why we believe the people we believe.
If you want to have a bigger discussion about how people come to believe the earth is flat, the 2020 election was stolen, the Covid vaccines have microchips, etc... I'm all for it.

As I've said before, I've never believed the earth is flat and I don't think you do either, so I think we can rule that one out.

I just made a thread that delves into certain Covid vaccines, specifically the mRNA ones. It can be seen here:

So far, no mention of microchips in it, but you're welcome to bring them up if that's your cup of tea.

I believe I made a thread on the U.S. 2020 federal election, though I'm not interesting in looking for it now.

But back to what I was referring to- I think it doesn't make sense to just diss the people we believe- you have called people I believe "conspiracy theorists", I have called believe you believe "authority figures", but the bottom line isn't what title they have, but why we believe them. That's what I wanted to get to, why we believe the people we believe.
 
Not what I said. I'll be a bit more precise this time to try to avoid you misunderstanding me. I found Dan Olmsted's evidence suggesting that polio may have been caused by other factors to be compelling. I don't find his notion that an alleged polio virus may have played a role to be compelling. For those who haven't yet seen Dan Olmstead's article on polio, it can be seen here:
You don't find the entire premise of Dan Olmsted's article to be compelling but you find his evidence to be compelling?
I find the evidence he provided that polio is caused by factors -other- than the alleged polio virus to be compelling.
He provides no evidence that polio is caused by factors other than a virus.

He does. You've even quoted him doing it. I suspect you don't know what factors as applied to health means. Fortunately, Wikipedia can help out in this regard:
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Diseases can be caused by any number of factors and may be acquired or congenital. Microorganisms, genetics, the environment or a combination of these can contribute to a diseased state.
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One of Dan Olmstead's articles, that you actually quoted, has this for a title:
The Age of Polio: How an Old Virus and New Toxins Triggered a Man-Made Epidemic

Now, if you'd like to explain how Dan Olmstead -doesn't- think that "New Toxins" are a factor in polio, by all means, go for it.
 
Dan Olmstead mentioned arsenic 132 times in his article. He mentioned DDT 7 times. He only mentioned "polio virus" 5 times. I don't think you have to be a math wiz to make an educated guess as to which factor he believed to be most important when it came to people getting sick with polio. For anyone in the audience who missed the article in question, it's here:
Hmm. Is this you?
**I believe in quality, not quantity.**

It is.

It seems you don't really believe in quality since you now are trying to use quantity by counting words and ignoring their usage.

No, just pointing out that Dan Olmstead used the term arseinc a lot more than the term "polio virus" in the article of his I referenced.

Counting the number of times he mentions arsenic has nothing to do with the quality of your claim. In fact it completely ignores the fact that the word virus occurs 73 times and at no time does he ever claim that any case could possibly exist without the virus.

I acknowledge that I would have been better off counting the term virus rather than polio virus. That being said, if memory serves, not all of those mentions were referencing the polio virus. Also, as I've pointed out to you in the past, he has mentioned a critique that postulates that the polio virus doesn't exist. He never said that this critique couldn't be correct. For the audience, here's what Dan Olmstead wrote on the matter:
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The second critique of the arsenic-virus theory is the toxin-only critique -- there’s no such thing as a poliovirus, or if there is it doesn’t trigger epidemics of paralytic illness; therefore, the “vaccine” didn’t really end those epidemics. Under this theory, It was banning DDT that caused the epidemics to diminish. Cases were camouflaged as "flaccid paralysis."
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Source:
 
He does. You've even quoted him doing it. I suspect you don't know what factors as applied to health means. Fortunately, Wikipedia can help out in this regard:
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Diseases can be caused by any number of factors and may be acquired or congenital. Microorganisms, genetics, the environment or a combination of these can contribute to a diseased state.
**

One of Dan Olmstead's articles, that you actually quoted, has this for a title:
The Age of Polio: How an Old Virus and New Toxins Triggered a Man-Made Epidemic

Now, if you'd like to explain how Dan Olmstead -doesn't- think that "New Toxins" are a factor in polio, by all means, go for it.
Speculation isn't evidence. Speculation is not science without doing the actual work. Since you think he actually presented evidence then cite it.
Did you forget what the scientific method is already?
 
He does. You've even quoted him doing it. I suspect you don't know what factors as applied to health means. Fortunately, Wikipedia can help out in this regard:
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Diseases can be caused by any number of factors and may be acquired or congenital. Microorganisms, genetics, the environment or a combination of these can contribute to a diseased state.
**

One of Dan Olmstead's articles, that you actually quoted, has this for a title:
The Age of Polio: How an Old Virus and New Toxins Triggered a Man-Made Epidemic

Now, if you'd like to explain how Dan Olmstead -doesn't- think that "New Toxins" are a factor in polio, by all means, go for it.
Counting the times a word is used isn't science. It isn't even good logic. Do you know what a pronoun is? Do you understand that a pronoun can refer to something without using the actual word you tried to count?
Once again, you seem to have forgotten what the scientific method is since you are simply promoting pseudoscience.
 
The second critique of the arsenic-virus theory is the toxin-only critique -- there’s no such thing as a poliovirus, or if there is it doesn’t trigger epidemics of paralytic illness; therefore, the “vaccine” didn’t really end those epidemics. Under this theory, It was banning DDT that caused the epidemics to diminish. Cases were camouflaged as "flaccid paralysis."
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Source:
Look up the word critique. If someone says that something is a critique of their work it doesn't mean they accept the critique as true or even likely. If it did, then every time you quote me, you would be admitting that viruses exist and we could end this discussion. But you clearly don't understand logic or the scientific method since you make so many ridiculous arguments and quote so much pseudoscience.
 
No, -you- are back to the "Grand conspiracy thing". I'm just poining out that people tend to believe things with little to no evidence, much as many do with most religions, so long as there are authority figures they trust who say it's true.
Yep. You have decided that Mike Stone and Sam Bailey are authority figures [snip]

You know, I have to admit that up until this point, your argument is alright, if we're using a certain definition of the term authority, namely an "an expert on a subject"- that was from the cambridge dictionary. The main issue with the term authority, however, is 2 fold- first, who determines whether or not someone is an "expert on a subject"? Secondly, it also has other meanings. For example, the very first definition the cambridge dictionary has is "authority... (power)", followed by "the moral or legal right or ability to control". For this reason, I think it's better to say that I believe that Mike Stone and Sam Bailey are experts on the lack of evidence that biological viruses exist, rather than that they are "authorities" on the subject.

Yep. You have decided that Mike Stone and Sam Bailey are authority figures and you believe them with little to no evidence.

The part in orange is where I strongly disagree with you. I believe that both Mike Stone and Sam Bailey have provided copious amounts of evidence detailing how virology has no solid scientific foundation.
 
I agree that looking at the scientific method is important. To answer your questions, I agree that the above method is on the right track, although there are ofcourse details such as controls that this very broad explanation of the scientific method doesn't touch on.
Do you agree that people that ignore the scientific method and refuse to alter their hypothesis when observations and experiments falsify that hypothesis are using pseudoscience?

That sounds reasonable, yes. I imagine you're aware that those who signed the "Settling the Virus Statement" believe that virologists are not following the scientific method. From their "Settling the Virus Debate" statement, quoted and linked to in the opening post of this thread:
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After a century of experimentation and studies, as well as untold billions of dollars spent toward this “war against viruses”, we must ask whether it’s time to reconsider this theory. For several decades, many doctors and scientists have been putting forth the case that this commonly-accepted understanding of viruses isbased on fundamental misconceptions. Fundamentally, rather than seeing “viruses” as independent, exogenous, pathogenic entities, these doctors and scientists have suggested they are simply the ordinary and inevitable breakdown particles of stressed and/or dead and dying tissues. They are therefore not pathogens, they are not harmful to other living beings, and no scientific or rationale reasons exist to take measures to protect oneself or others against them. The misconceptions about “viruses” appears to largely derive from the nature of the experiments that are used as evidence to argue that such particles exist and act in the above pathological manner. In essence, the publications in virology are largely of a descriptive nature, rather than controlled and falsifiable hypothesis-driven experiments that are the heart of the scientific method.

Perhaps the primary evidence that the pathogenic viral theory is problematic is that no published scientific paper has ever shown that particles fulfilling the definition of viruses have been directly isolated and purifiedfrom any tissues or bodily fluids of any sick human or animal. Using the commonly accepted definition of “isolation”, which is the separation of one thing from all other things, there is general agreement that this has never been done in the history of virology. Particles that have been successfully isolated through purification have not been shown to be replication-competent, infectious and disease-causing, hence they cannot be said to be viruses. Additionally, the proffered “evidence” of viruses through “genomes" and animal experiments derives from methodologies with insufficient controls.

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