Energy savings win!

[MAGA MAN]

Since energy is a political issue I put the thread here.

Last summer I was contacted by a private energy audit company about making my home more energy efficient. I've always been big into spending to save and have taken many steps over the years to save on my electric costs. Natural gas isn't available in my 'hood.

Several years ago I increased the insulation in my attic. There's about 2' of the stuff up there. It didn't make the big difference in savings that I expected. Three years ago I replaced my downstairs heat pump with a higher efficiency model, then the next year replaced the second floor unit. Again I achieved some savings but not as much as I expected.

With this energy audit, the representative inspected my home then recommended three things.

1. A reflective shield on top of the attic insulation. This is basically 1/8" bubble wrap with aluminum foil on both sides. It is perforated with small holes to release moisture. The theory is that it reflects heat from above in the summer and from below in the winter. It also keeps dust out of the insulation that decreases its efficiency over time.

2. A solar powered attic fan. I had a powered fan up there and was on the third motor. I had been looking at these but it was a roof renovation and I didn't want to spend the money to pay a contractor to install it.

3. LED lighting. It was very expensive at that time so he recommended that I change out 15 or so bulbs that we use the most, that I had not already replaced with CFLs.

He quoted me a price of about $6000. I told him that he needed to sharpen his pencil and after several rounds, I ended up paying about $4200. The rebate on my taxes was about $1800, so my net ended up to be about $2400.

Duke Energy just sent me a chart of my energy use over the past year, showing a huge dip after the install. I'm saving about 25%, or about $700/ year, so the payoff is about 4 years.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Since energy is a political issue I put the thread here.

Last summer I was contacted by a private energy audit company about making my home more energy efficient. I've always been big into spending to save and have taken many steps over the years to save on my electric costs. Natural gas isn't available in my 'hood.

Several years ago I increased the insulation in my attic. There's about 2' of the stuff up there. It didn't make the big difference in savings that I expected. Three years ago I replaced my downstairs heat pump with a higher efficiency model, then the next year replaced the second floor unit. Again I achieved some savings but not as much as I expected.

With this energy audit, the representative inspected my home then recommended three things.

1. A reflective shield on top of the attic insulation. This is basically 1/8" bubble wrap with aluminum foil on both sides. It is perforated with small holes to release moisture. The theory is that it reflects heat from above in the summer and from below in the winter. It also keeps dust out of the insulation that decreases its efficiency over time.

2. A solar powered attic fan. I had a powered fan up there and was on the third motor. I had been looking at these but it was a roof renovation and I didn't want to spend the money to pay a contractor to install it.

3. LED lighting. It was very expensive at that time so he recommended that I change out 15 or so bulbs that we use the most, that I had not already replaced with CFLs.

He quoted me a price of about $6000. I told him that he needed to sharpen his pencil and after several rounds, I ended up paying about $4200. The rebate on my taxes was about $1800, so my net ended up to be about $2400.

Duke Energy just sent me a chart of my energy use over the past year, showing a huge dip after the install. I'm saving about 25%, or about $700/ year, so the payoff is about 4 years.

I've been thinking about adding a 10x12 barn style shed, biggest I can go without permits, in the back yard and was thinking of adding solar panels, rather then running power to it.
Downstairs will be about 7' tall, don't want to hit my head, and then the upstairs full loft will be about 5' at the sidewalls.
Plan on making the entire thing about 16' high.
Going to put shelves upstairs, to store totes in, and leave the bottom more open, for larger items.
Plan on using a block and tackle to get stuff to the loft area.

Something similar to this:

Going to put it on a cement slap, instead of runners.
The floor, with a 12" foundation, should use about 2.5 cubic yds.
Foundation will be 4" above ground, 8" below ground, and about 12" wide.
Also plan on putting a ramp, in the front, just to make it easer to get heavy items in and out; plus it will protect the edge of the slab.

I figure the solar panel and storage batteries might give me enough power to run lights, a compressor, a table saw, and a few other items.

 

[MAGA MAN]

I think the only way to make solar economical is:
1. Tax credits, and
2. Reverse metering.

Both require permits. Why not get one? You'll need a foundation that you can bolt that thing onto to prevent uplift.

The other benefit of permitting is that you can probably have it insured as part of your home policy.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

I think the only way to make solar economical is:
1. Tax credits, and
2. Reverse metering.

Both require permits. Why not get one? You'll need a foundation that you can bolt that thing onto to prevent uplift.

The other benefit of permitting is that you can probably have it insured as part of your home policy.

By footings, I meant the foundation.
Making the change in my original post.
I intend to weld the bolts to the rebar in the foundation.
That way all I have to do is frame the wall, drill the holes for the bolts and then secure them down.

Already checked and I can do the panels and the insurance, after I build the shed.
If the price is right, at the time of the panel instillation, I might go for the reverse metering.

Since I'm putting in the full loft; I'm going to build the lower walls out of 2x6's and the upper walls out of 2x4's. That way I'll have about a 2" ledge to set my loft floor on.
Haven't decided if I want to build a structural support wall, in the center, or just go with support beams.
It's only a 10' span so I may not need to, seeing as how most of the storage will probably be in the shelves on the sides.

 

[MAGA MAN]

Don't put a center wall in it. That would be retarded. (Channeling Zippy).

You can span 10' with 2x6 16" on center or 2x8 24" on center. That assumes a 30 pounds per square foot storage load, which is a standard residential attic or bedroom. It also assumes common lumber, spruce-pin-fir #2.

Welding is great but overkill. You can drill 5/8" x 8" holes into the footing, air blast the holes clean and epoxy in 1/2" threaded rod. In 90 mph wind zone place these on the corners and no more than 6' on center around the perimeter.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Don't put a center wall in it. That would be retarded. (Channeling Zippy).

You can span 10' with 2x6 16" on center or 2x8 24" on center. That assumes a 30 pounds per square foot storage load, which is a standard residential attic or bedroom. It also assumes common lumber, spruce-pin-fir #2.

Welding is great but overkill. You can drill 5/8" x 8" holes into the footing, air blast the holes clean and epoxy in 1/2" threaded rod. In 90 mph wind zone place these on the corners and no more than 6' on center around the perimeter.

I'm just being lazy on the welding.
On the loft, is was thinking of saving some money and just go with 2x4's on 16" centers.
I haven't done up all my cost outlay's yet.
It would take me 10 2x4's (or 2x6's) and 7 2x8's, if I go that route.
Trying to stay within the 16' height limit and with a 7' high area in the lower section and then add in the thickness of the floor (beams and plywood), I don't want to go over 16' at the peak (2 sheets of 8' ply).
I've got a couple of plans I'm looking at, that have a different roof pitch for the two sections that make the barn roof look.

 

[MAGA MAN]

That's called a gambrel roof. Kinda a PITA because you have to support the side angle with a vertical stud. Or you could be smart-lazy and call a truss company and find out how much for them to make the trusses for you.

Two options would be an economy truss with 2x4s, diagonal center chords and crappy storage, or an "attic truss", which would have vertical center chords a 2x6 lower chord to form a flat floor about 2/3 of the roof width.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

That's called a gambrel roof. Kinda a PITA because you have to support the side angle with a vertical stud. Or you could be smart-lazy and call a truss company and find out how much for them to make the trusses for you.

Two options would be an economy truss with 2x4s, diagonal center chords and crappy storage, or an "attic truss", which would have vertical center chords a 2x6 lower chord to form a flat floor about 2/3 of the roof width.

A couple of the hardware stores out here, have shown a framing system that pretty much eliminates the extra strut.
It's pretty much the same principal that they're using on those pre-built sheds and some of those are 10x10.
I'm just going an extra 2' longer and about 4' higher.

Here's a picture close to what I'm talking about.

 

[The Dude]

No offense but I had to put the breaks on engineers shitty project economics for decades.
In no way should your refund apply against the return.

 

[Althea]

Since energy is a political issue I put the thread here.

Last summer I was contacted by a private energy audit company about making my home more energy efficient. I've always been big into spending to save and have taken many steps over the years to save on my electric costs. Natural gas isn't available in my 'hood.

Several years ago I increased the insulation in my attic. There's about 2' of the stuff up there. It didn't make the big difference in savings that I expected. Three years ago I replaced my downstairs heat pump with a higher efficiency model, then the next year replaced the second floor unit. Again I achieved some savings but not as much as I expected.

With this energy audit, the representative inspected my home then recommended three things.

1. A reflective shield on top of the attic insulation. This is basically 1/8" bubble wrap with aluminum foil on both sides. It is perforated with small holes to release moisture. The theory is that it reflects heat from above in the summer and from below in the winter. It also keeps dust out of the insulation that decreases its efficiency over time.

2. A solar powered attic fan. I had a powered fan up there and was on the third motor. I had been looking at these but it was a roof renovation and I didn't want to spend the money to pay a contractor to install it.

3. LED lighting. It was very expensive at that time so he recommended that I change out 15 or so bulbs that we use the most, that I had not already replaced with CFLs.

He quoted me a price of about $6000. I told him that he needed to sharpen his pencil and after several rounds, I ended up paying about $4200. The rebate on my taxes was about $1800, so my net ended up to be about $2400.

Duke Energy just sent me a chart of my energy use over the past year, showing a huge dip after the install. I'm saving about 25%, or about $700/ year, so the payoff is about 4 years.

Do you use most of your electricity for cooling, or heating?

 

[Althea]

A couple of the hardware stores out here, have shown a framing system that pretty much eliminates the extra strut.
It's pretty much the same principal that they're using on those pre-built sheds and some of those are 10x10.
I'm just going an extra 2' longer and about 4' higher.

Here's a picture close to what I'm talking about.

You're doing this just to have a workshop? How much electricity can you possibly use?

 

[MAGA MAN]

Do you use most of your electricity for cooling, or heating?

Look at the chart in the OP.

 

[Althea]

Look at the chart in the OP.

Your OP doesn't mention when you actually did the work...You got the audit in the summer. I see no savings, save for a small reduction in kw this March, over last year. It would be helpful to see what your usage was last Feb.

You haven't told me if you use electricity for heat? The chart doesn't provide that info. It just shows that you're still using more electricity than an average home.

 

[MAGA MAN]

A couple of the hardware stores out here, have shown a framing system that pretty much eliminates the extra strut.
It's pretty much the same principal that they're using on those pre-built sheds and some of those are 10x10.
I'm just going an extra 2' longer and about 4' higher.

Here's a picture close to what I'm talking about.

I need a microscope to see that but it looks to me like they have plywood plates at the connections. That's called a moment frame and if you can get a pre-engineered system then by all means go for it. But unless you can get a copy of the sealed drawing (with a stamp for your state) few building inspectors would accept it.

FYI most of these out buildings won't hold up to Code design loads. A municipal client purchase a "Leonard Building" to cover their fueling station and then the County Codes Enforcement Officer would not approve the installation without an engineer's seal. They are a light gauge steel bent tube moment frame with a corrugated steel roof. Leonard couldn't do it since they had no engineer on staff (even though they sell thousands of these things every year) so the Village asked me to do it. I can't just seal someone's drawing in NC; I have to have one of my staff re-draw it then I do the math on it and if it works seal my firm's drawing. Or write a report on "repairs" to an existing installation. So I did the math and the thing was basically a kite ready to launch. It required not just large footings with tie downs but stiffeners at the ties and all of the bends, plus braces between the frames. The Village manager thought I was FOS of course because 'everyone has these in the back yards and they've been making them for years'. Leonard stopped taking his phone calls.

 

[MAGA MAN]

Your OP doesn't mention when you actually did the work...You got the audit in the summer. I see no savings, save for a small reduction in kw this March, over last year. It would be helpful to see what your usage was last Feb.

You haven't told me if you use electricity for heat? The chart doesn't provide that info. It just shows that you're still using more electricity than an average home.

The answers to your questions can be easily deduced by the information given in the OP.

The yellow line is 'my home' and shows a tendency above the blue line 'average home' for the first 5 months. Then it meets the average in August and follows it closely for the remainder of the year. Since I stated that the audit was done in the summer and yellow meets blue in August then the reader can deduce that the work was done in the summer, prior to August. The exact date is not important.

The OP states that there is no natural gas available and that I have heat pumps. The reader can then deduce that heat pumps, which are electric, heat the house.

 

[Althea]

The answers to your questions can be easily deduced by the information given in the OP.

The yellow line is 'my home' and shows a tendency above the blue line 'average home' for the first 5 months. Then it meets the average in August and follows it closely for the remainder of the year. Since I stated that the audit was done in the summer and yellow meets blue in August then the reader can deduce that the work was done in the summer, prior to August. The exact date is not important.

The OP states that there is no natural gas available and that I have heat pumps. The reader can then deduce that heat pumps, which are electric, heat the house.

Then the reader can also deduce, that you are still using more energy than the average home. You've refused to supply information re. your highest draw from last year, so the reader must assume that you aren't saving anything.

 

[Althea]

Duke Energy just sent me a chart of my energy use over the past year, showing a huge dip after the install. I'm saving about 25%, or about $700/ year, so the payoff is about 4 years.

The chart does NOT show a huge dip in your consumption over the previous fall. In fact, it shows nothing about your consumption from that fall.

 

[MAGA MAN]

Then the reader can also deduce, that you are still using more energy than the average home. You've refused to supply information re. your highest draw from last year, so the reader must assume that you aren't saving anything.

Highest draw is meaningless. The average home is data supplied by the utility. One may assume that it is based on the average electrical bill of the residences served, with no specifics on the individual homes in the market area, such as square footage, age, and energy sources other than electricity used.

The chart compares energy use for twelve months. Since you are being so picky I totaled up for the comparison periods for a more accurate assessment. The first four are before the modifications, and shows energy use about 34% higher than an average home. The last eight show energy use about 6% more than an average home. One can then deduce that I am saving about 28% due to the modifications. So your assumption that I am not saving anything is baseless, and of course wrong.

The chart does NOT show a huge dip in your consumption over the previous fall. In fact, it shows nothing about your consumption from that fall.

The chart does not show the shade of green of the grass for each month either, since that is as irrelevant as the information that you so desire.

 

[Althea]

Since energy is a political issue I put the thread here.

And since we disagree politically, you refuse to carry on an adult conversation? I was curious about the bubble wrap. You already have R 70...more or less...in your attic. I wanted to know if you were getting your claimed savings due to heat reflection up, or down? I don't see a heat shield decreasing your heat loss, given your 24" of fiberglass already.

You also mentioned an attic fan. Said fans are meant to keep a house cool...not warm.

All evidence points toward an attempt to save on cooling, not heating. Given that you made no mention of an A.C unit, I simply asked where you spent the bulk of your electricity.


You don't have to be an asshole in every thread.

 

[Althea]

Highest draw is meaningless. The average home is data supplied by the utility. One may assume that it is based on the average electrical bill of the residences served, with no specifics on the individual homes in the market area, such as square footage, age, and energy sources other than electricity used.

The chart compares energy use for twelve months. Since you are being so picky I totaled up for the comparison periods for a more accurate assessment. The first four are before the modifications, and shows energy use about 34% higher than an average home. The last eight show energy use about 6% more than an average home. One can then deduce that I am saving about 28% due to the modifications. So your assumption that I am not saving anything is baseless, and of course wrong.

The chart does not show the shade of green of the grass for each month either, since that is as irrelevant as the information that you so desire.

I'm sure you'll agree that any claimed energy saving ought to be based on your actual usage, and not some average set forth by the power company