Executive Order #13524

NigelTufnel said:
Yes, I read it. INTERPOL is exempt from search of seizure of its property by the government, among other things. But that has nothing to do with FOIA, which doesn't even apply to INTERPOL in the first instance.
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Again, nobody in any government is going to take any part of their day to write any order or alter any order to exempt any organization that has natural exemption from a law....

It is nonsense. You are arguing gibberish.

Why would the Obama administration feel the need to start listing every organization that doesn't fall under the purview of a law as exempt from that law?
 
Damocles said:
Again, this doesn't answer my question. First "INTERPOL" does have definite portions (since it is an organization of police forces working together) that are definitely within the definition of "agency" in the FOIA, there is a reason it is specifically mentioned in these Executive orders.

What I want to know is exactly what this executive order does, what are its ramifications?

It would be helpful if you would explain it, as the expert of the site on the subject, to us neophytes.

Tell me why any administration would take the time to exempt an organization that doesn't fall into the definitions within a law from the law? It is nonsense to do so, and you know it is. No executive order would be necessary to exempt them from any provision of the Act at all if they did not fall under its jurisdiction. Even Obama wouldn't waste his time on it if they were already exempted as you try to imply.
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Clearly, you didn't read the applicable Executive Order as it is silent as to FOIA and does not even reference it. The FOIA part was dreamed up whole cloth by people who hate Obama and want to criticize his every action regardless of how off base their criticisms are.
 
NigelTufnel said:
Clearly, you didn't read the applicable Executive Order as it is silent as to FOIA and does not even reference it. The FOIA part was dreamed up whole cloth by people who hate Obama and want to criticize his every action regardless of how off base their criticisms are.
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Clearly you do not understand that it mentions a different law (actually one created by a treaty) that does mention the FOIA.

This extended to the US offices of INTERPOL (peopled by people who are under the jurisdiction of the FOIA) exemptions given to the full international organization, but it listed certain portions of that treaty (the ones I asked you about) from these exemptions. This particular executive order further extends those exemptions to include those portions previously listed.

You are attempting to "explain" something you do not understand, it is becoming clear now. Such a shame, I thought I was going to learn something today.

I still would love to hear an explanation of why two Presidents felt it necessary to list exemptions from something that the organization was supposedly not subject to. Why would two such busy men waste their time exempting an organization that was already naturally exempted? Your argument makes no sense, and it is based in ignorance. My bet is there is some lefty site out there you were getting this information from, especially the portion where it "doesn't even mention the FOIA" which is technically true, but not actually true when taken in actual context and with knowledge of the agreement it does mention.
 
Yurt said:
that is not all....they are also immune from lawsuits and every form of judicial process just like foreign governments...

why is it necessary to give a POLICE organization such immunity when our own police organizations do not enjoy such immunity?
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still waiting
 
NigelTufnel said:
What law, hotshot?
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International Organizations Immunities Act

Have you actually read Executive Order 12425 which this Executive Order amends?

Here is a link to that law:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/decad034.asp

Reagan's order specifically listed the limits to their immunity by exempting certain provisions.

This executive order removes those exemptions and further extends the immunity of an organization that was, until this order went into effect, subject to those provisions.

And contrary to your thought process, Presidents do not extend exemptions to organizations that wouldn't fall under the purview of the law, those with natural exemptions need not be given such consideration.
 
NigelTufnel said:
Yes, show me the reference to FOIA.
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Ah, yes. I did say it mentioned it. I'm sorry I should have stated that it exempts them from it by making such organizations immune from all search. My bad. I'll admit to that. However, the specific sections listed that were not included in these immunities pertain to such searches.

They also include some portions that exempt them from Social Security taxes and other things. But the most worrisome is adding immunity from 2(c).

(c) Property and assets of international organizations, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall be immune from search, unless such immunity be expressly waived, and from confiscation. The archives of international organizations shall be inviolable.
 
Damocles said:
Again, Reagan specifically listed portions to which the immunity did not extend. These are being removed by Obama's order.
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I'm more than happy to debate the Three Stooges (SF, Yurt and Damocles) but I'm not inclined to respond to this idiotic nonsense. Regan's Executive Order already granted INTERPOL in 288 section 2(a) and (b), which is what Yurt is complaining about.

The issue is what granting the immunity in section 2(c) accomplishes.
 
Damocles said:
Ah, yes. I did say it mentioned it. I'm sorry I should have stated that it exempts them from it by making such organizations immune from all search. My bad. I'll admit to that. However, the specific sections listed that were not included in these immunities pertain to such searches.
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1) Search by whom?

2) The issue is whether the exemption from search means that INTERPOL is exempt from FOIA. My very simple and straightforward argument is that (a) FOIA never applied to INTERPOL because it isn't an agency within the meaning of FOIA and that (b) to the extent that INTERPOL operates in the United States it does so under the Department of Justice which is subject to FOIA. The end result being that this Executive Order has no bearing whatsoever on FOIA and INTERPOL.
 
NigelTufnel said:
I'm more than happy to debate the Three Stooges (SF, Yurt and Damocles) but I'm not inclined to respond to this idiotic nonsense. Regan's Executive Order already granted INTERPOL in 288 section 2(a) and (b), which is what Yurt is complaining about.

The issue is what granting the immunity in section 2(c) accomplishes.
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Yes, that is directly where we are going here. Previous to Obama's order they were not immune from all search, but now are.

Thank you for at least being able to go there.
 
NigelTufnel said:
1) Search by whom?

2) The issue is whether the exemption from search means that INTERPOL is exempt from FOIA. My very simple and straightforward argument is that (a) FOIA never applied to INTERPOL because it isn't an agency within the meaning of FOIA and that (b) to the extent that INTERPOL operates in the United States it does so under the Department of Justice which is subject to FOIA. The end result being that this Executive Order has no bearing whatsoever on FOIA and INTERPOL.
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If, per the FOIA, the courts ordered information to be given and they refused they can by the Court's authority go and get them. This would make that impossible.

Pretending that full immunity from all search would not extend such provisions is simply pretense.
 
Damocles said:
If, per the FOIA, the courts ordered information to be given and they refused they can by the Court's authority go and get them. This would make that impossible.

Pretending that full immunity from all search would not extend such provisions is simply pretense.
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You are assuming that INTERPOL is subject to FOIA in the first instance. It isn't. The only entity subject to FOIA is the DOJ-USNCB which is still subject to FOIA after this Executive Order. If the DOJ-USNCB has information subject to FOIA it is required to provide it. If the DOJ-USNCB doesn't have the information requested, it cannot be ordered to obtain it. The EO changes nothing with respect to INTERPOL and FOIA.

And again I ask search by whom?
 
NigelTufnel said:
You are assuming that INTERPOL is subject to FOIA in the first instance. It isn't. The only entity subject to FOIA is the DOJ-USNCB which is still subject to FOIA after this Executive Order. If the DOJ-USNCB has information subject to FOIA it is required to provide it. If the DOJ-USNCB doesn't have the information requested, it cannot be ordered to obtain it. The EO changes nothing with respect to INTERPOL and FOIA.

And again I ask search by whom?
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Again, and we even have links to it above, they are. Those portions which are agencies of the US (our own guys in the office here) are subject to this. This executive order gave them some immunities as listed in that other law, but it specifically limited it. The secondary order that amends it removes those limitations.

And again I point out search by whichever agency is used to enforce the court orders. You are being purposefully obtuse.

Just as no President writes orders to exempt agencies from a law they are naturally exempt to, they also do not write executive orders to include agencies into such laws that would otherwise automatically be part of it. The US INTERPOL offices are not naturally exempt from search, they are in fact an agency of the US, nor are those offices automatically included into the International Organizations Immunities Act. If they were, neither of these executive orders would have ever been necessary.
 
NigelTufnel said:
Ask Ronald Regan. The immunity you are complaining about has existed since at least 1983.
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no they did not....reagan exempted those immunities, obama gave them

good lord and you call us stooges....you don't have a clue what you're talking about and have no idea what the code says...
 
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