FDR's four freedoms...

You have to gain Jesus' love, how do you do that by adhering to characteristics he spoke against?

This is false, you do not have to gain Jesus' love. As I said, you would do well to avoid topics you don't understand. You completely miss the point on the 'eye of the needle' scripture, just as Jesus was saying wealth doesn't get you into heaven, he is also saying, wealth doesn't keep you from heaven, it has nothing to do with status, and everything to do with acceptance.

You want to manipulate scriptures to promote a socialist political agenda, and that is all fine and well, but Jesus did not intend his word to be used as a promotion for a political ideology. This does work both ways, and I am consistent with this, but I also demand consistency from others. If you are not willing to stand for religious principles in all areas of our governing, you shouldn't exploit specific areas which bolster your views, and ignore the others. This is the very complaint you have of the religious right, is it not?
 
The pursuit of wealth is vital to capitalism, the desire for more than you can possibly need is vital to capitalism, thus greed is vital to capitalism.

Hold on a sec... you made a big huge leap, from pursuit of wealth to desire for more than you can possibly need. Capitalism is the enactment of free enterprise to supply the demands of the market. While opportunity is key in the success of capitalism, it has very little to do with greed. Generally speaking, greed can be an unfortunate byproduct of capitalism, and capitalism can certainly spawn greed, but greed is not necessary for capitalism to work, that is determined by supply and demand, and a free market.
 
Everyone controls their destiny and has opportunity for success if they have ownership of modes of production. If they don't they have no or little control over their destiny.

No, this is true in a Socialist or Communist society, not a Capitalist one. In a free enterprise, free market, capitalist system, everyone is in control of their destiny. There are countless cases of people with absolutely nothing, no means of production of anything, no ownership of anything, yet they managed to utilize the capitalist free enterprise system, to gain enormous wealth and prosperity. To deny that this is possible, is ignorant of reality.

Now, you can certainly make the argument that it doesn't happen enough, and that more people should be able to utilize the free market and capitalist system to gain wealth, but that would be an argument for more promotion of Capitalism, not less.
 
This is false, you do not have to gain Jesus' love. As I said, you would do well to avoid topics you don't understand. You completely miss the point on the 'eye of the needle' scripture, just as Jesus was saying wealth doesn't get you into heaven, he is also saying, wealth doesn't keep you from heaven, it has nothing to do with status, and everything to do with acceptance.

Read what it says.....

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven"

It is impossible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, do you agree?

Thus it is even harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

No amount of spinning can make this mean anything other than 'it is impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven'

This isn't ambiguous in the slightest. Not in the slightest.

Nothing in it's context can be deemed to state 'wealth doesn't matter for entry into heaven', it is unequivacal. If you are rich, then you have less chance of getting into heaven than a camel climbing through a needle's eye. You are putting a spin on this so that it doesn't appear to contradict your capitalist beliefs.

You want to manipulate scriptures to promote a socialist political agenda, and that is all fine and well, but Jesus did not intend his word to be used as a promotion for a political ideology.

That's my new signature.....

If you are not willing to stand for religious principles in all areas of our governing, you shouldn't exploit specific areas which bolster your views, and ignore the others. This is the very complaint you have of the religious right, is it not?

I am not saying this justifies a particular position, I am investigating the contradiction between what you say you believe in, and what you do...."

p.s. Religion is my prime subject, I understand it better than you....
 
Hold on a sec... you made a big huge leap, from pursuit of wealth to desire for more than you can possibly need. Capitalism is the enactment of free enterprise to supply the demands of the market. While opportunity is key in the success of capitalism, it has very little to do with greed. Generally speaking, greed can be an unfortunate byproduct of capitalism, and capitalism can certainly spawn greed, but greed is not necessary for capitalism to work, that is determined by supply and demand, and a free market.


So you consider greed a by-product of capitalism?

Without the constant demand for goods that aren't essential, capitalism would fail. Why do people replace cars when their old ones work perfectly well or replace their tv's with hi-def, because the neighbours have one...

Capitalism is ran by greed, the acquisition of personal wealth...
 
Jesus' message had nothing to do with his approval, it was his love.

This is a statement that makes little sense, the usual religious obscurum per obscurius argument...
Click to expand...

Well, that's why I suggested you avoid topics you know little about. It makes little sense to you, because you don't understand that Christ's Love is universal and unconditional, and it doesn't have to be 'gained'.

Jesus was around in the era of the Great Roman Empire, and so it was a great concern to people of the day. Should they adhere to the faith or the government? Jesus consistent reply to this most important question of the day, was that faith has nothing to do with government and rulers. Loyalty and disloyalty, have nothing to do with faith. Whether you are supportive of capitalist means or socialist means, has nothing to do with faith. Your relationship with God is independent of your individual condition, and rests in your heart alone. You can't be a "better Christian" by being wealthy, and you can't be a "worse Christian" by being wealthy, and visa versa if you are poor. Your faith rests in your heart, and you personal relationship with God, and is not dependent on satisfying some requirement or condition of Jesus for his love.
 
Dixie said:
Well, that's why I suggested you avoid topics you know little about. It makes little sense to you, because you don't understand that Christ's Love is universal and unconditional, and it doesn't have to be 'gained'.

Jesus was around in the era of the Great Roman Empire, and so it was a great concern to people of the day. Should they adhere to the faith or the government? Jesus consistent reply to this most important question of the day, was that faith has nothing to do with government and rulers. Loyalty and disloyalty, have nothing to do with faith. Whether you are supportive of capitalist means or socialist means, has nothing to do with faith. Your relationship with God is independent of your individual condition, and rests in your heart alone. You can't be a "better Christian" by being wealthy, and you can't be a "worse Christian" by being wealthy, and visa versa if you are poor. Your faith rests in your heart, and you personal relationship with God, and is not dependent on satisfying some requirement or condition of Jesus for his love.
Click to expand...

You do realize of course, BILLO, that this is only one version or interpretation of the myth!!!!!!
 
AnyOldIron said:
Hold on a sec... you made a big huge leap, from pursuit of wealth to desire for more than you can possibly need. Capitalism is the enactment of free enterprise to supply the demands of the market. While opportunity is key in the success of capitalism, it has very little to do with greed. Generally speaking, greed can be an unfortunate byproduct of capitalism, and capitalism can certainly spawn greed, but greed is not necessary for capitalism to work, that is determined by supply and demand, and a free market.


So you consider greed a by-product of capitalism?

Without the constant demand for goods that aren't essential, capitalism would fail. Why do people replace cars when their old ones work perfectly well or replace their tv's with hi-def, because the neighbours have one...

Capitalism is ran by greed, the acquisition of personal wealth...
Click to expand...

Yes, I consider greed a byproduct of capitalism, and it can also be a motivating factor of capitalism, but it is not a necessary element. People replace cars, not out of greed, but out of need, want, and desire. Greed, as you most appropriately stated previously, is the 'desire for more than you could possibly need'. So we have a huge gap between what people legitimately need and desire, and what you arbitrarily determined is "more than they possibly need". I admit, "greed" falls into a grey area, but it doesn't mean that capitalism is the cause of it, or that eliminating the possibility of capitalist opportunity, would thus eliminate greed.
 
Prakosh said:
You do realize of course, BILLO, that this is only one version or interpretation of the myth!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Yes, Stewart Smalley, I do realize that. There are numerous interpretations of the 2,000 year-old persistent "myth." I think it's fairly universal, that Jesus makes no requirement for his love, except for acceptance of it. If you have another Christian interpretation of that, please present it for observation, if not, shut the hell up and go back to doing bad comedy.
 
I notice, Dixie, that you have totally ignored Jesus words in relation to the rich man, and brought about your own interpretation according to what fits your personal circumstances/opinions.

So, answer this....

Does what Jesus actually say not matter, when seen in the light of your own personal perspective?

Did Jesus say things that were superfluous?
 
People replace cars, not out of greed, but out of need, want, and desire.

Then why do people replace them when they aren't broken?

Why are perfectly working cars, tv's etc replaced for the newest models?

Capitalism, particulary consumerism, relies heavily on the concept that people will constantly want more. On greed.

You can attempt to spin this away, but it evident everywhere in capitalism.

Rupert Murdoch doesn't need to own the majority of the world's media to make a living, so why does he continue to acquire? Greed...
 
AnyOldIron said:
I notice, Dixie, that you have totally ignored Jesus words in relation to the rich man, and brought about your own interpretation according to what fits your personal circumstances/opinions.

So, answer this....

Does what Jesus actually say not matter, when seen in the light of your own personal perspective?

Did Jesus say things that were superfluous?
Click to expand...

There is no need for me to discuss Jesus' words with a man who doesn't understand them. Why would I do such a thing? Regarding my personal perspective, I try to keep that separate from debate points on a message board, as they are often separate things completely.

I know that it is difficult to get sat down and shut up on your 'religious' point, but really... let's be adults about this, Arnold. Jesus simply never spoke out against 'the evils of capitalism', and if you have interpreted that in His word, you are grossly mistaken.
 
I think it's fairly universal, that Jesus makes no requirement for his love, except for acceptance of it.

That makes a persons actions irrelevant.

You can act in an unChristian manner throughout your life and yet repent on your death bed.

Then, what is the point in encouraging people to act in a Christian manner?

That is totally illogical.
 
Capitalism, particulary consumerism, relies heavily on the concept that people will constantly want more. On greed.

No, hold on... Greed is wanting more than you could possibly need. Capitalism only requires a need and demand for something, it makes no delineation with regard to motive, or whether it is a need motivated by greed. As we have determined, greed is in a vast grey area, and can be subjectively defined. Clearly, you may have a completely different interpretation of "what I could possibly need" than I have. I might determine that you don't really "need" a computer to rant on, with all the illiteracy in the world, I am sure it could be put to better use. The point is, "Greed" is a subjective term, in the sense you are trying to apply it, and it simply doesn't support the idea that Capitalism is dependent upon it.
 
Dixie said:
There is no need for me to discuss Jesus' words with a man who doesn't understand them. Why would I do such a thing? Regarding my personal perspective, I try to keep that separate from debate points on a message board, as they are often separate things completely.

I know that it is difficult to get sat down and shut up on your 'religious' point, but really... let's be adults about this, Arnold. Jesus simply never spoke out against 'the evils of capitalism', and if you have interpreted that in His word, you are grossly mistaken.
Click to expand...

Most knowlegeable economists doubt that modern capitalism existed in 1-33 AD, (a category of time that itself did not exist then) and that it would have been highly unlikely that Christ would have said much about it at that time, not only because it did not exist, but because I know of no one who considers Christ an economist. I think BILLO is in uncharted waters headed for a reef here.

I am especially interested in unpacking this rather convoluted claim: "I know that it is difficult to get sat down and shut up on your 'religious' point, but really..." Is this another, in a long list of foolhardy attempts to get us to see BILLO as too stupid to argue with????? Only the Shadow knows!!!!!

Or Something
 
There is no need for me to discuss Jesus' words with a man who doesn't understand them. Why would I do such a thing?

Doesn't understand them? LOL That's a poor way of dodging the argument....

You cannot explain away the paradox between what Jesus said and what you think he meant, so you cut and run....

Fair enough, I'm leaving the office now anyway...
 
That makes a persons actions irrelevant.
In a sense, yes. Jesus died on the cross for our sins.

You can act in an unChristian manner throughout your life and yet repent on your death bed.

Well, technically, you could... but, if you have adopted this plan, God knows what is in your heart is not sincere, and you will be in for a rude awakening on Judgement Day. I wouldn't recommend it.

Then, what is the point in encouraging people to act in a Christian manner?

Love for Christ.

That is totally illogical

Because you don't understand it.

I know!
 
...it would have been highly unlikely that Christ would have said much about it at that time, not only because it did not exist, but because I know of no one who considers Christ an economist.

Which is precisely why I made the point. Thanks for noticing!
 
Dixie said:
That makes a persons actions irrelevant.
In a sense, yes. Jesus died on the cross for our sins.

You can act in an unChristian manner throughout your life and yet repent on your death bed.

Well, technically, you could... but, if you have adopted this plan, God knows what is in your heart is not sincere, and you will be in for a rude awakening on Judgement Day. I wouldn't recommend it.

Then, what is the point in encouraging people to act in a Christian manner?

Love for Christ.

That is totally illogical

Because you don't understand it.

I know!
Click to expand...

It's really all literary, rather than religious, the Bible is after all nothing but a compilation of storiesor narratives, some more believeable than others, but all stories or narratives nonetheless, and as such, open to various and numerous interpretations, yours being one of many possible and equally implausible versions of the events. It's as unlikely that when we all die we will stand before some old man with a beard who will judge what is in our hearts or souls (whatever that abstraction refers to) before letting us into paradise, as it is that 77 (or whatever the number is) virgins will be awaiting all suicide bombers or that the Egyptians crossed the river Styx after death. And the idea that Christ died for anyone's sins let alone mine is ludicrous on its face. What is more important to those of us with any latent or manifest curiousity at all is why people feel the need to believe in such myths. What purpose do such myths serve??? Why do people fear their own creative capacity??? Why do they feel the need for some other power???? Some Super super-ego as it were to watch over them and keep track of them and what they are doing????? What is that about anyway???? Why are we going to heaven or hell instead of just dying and and being burned or buried and rotting away like the rest of the animal kingdom evidently does...We are, after all, still only flesh and bones, except for that rather creative abstraction that we have endowed ourselves with, the soul. But doing so doesn't make the soul any more concrete forall that creative effort.
 
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What is more important to those of us with any latent or manifest curiousity at all is why people feel the need to believe in such myths. What purpose do such myths serve??? Why do people fear their own creative capacity??? Why do they feel the need for some other power???? Some Super super-ego as it were to watch over them and keep track of them and what they are doing????? What is that about anyway???? Why are we going to heaven or hell instead of just dying and and being burned or buried and rotting away like the rest of the animal kingdom evidently does...We are, after all, still only flesh and bones, except for that rather creative abstraction that we have endowed ourselves with, the soul. But doing so doesn't make the soul any more concrete forall that creative effort.

I would submit there is a legitimate reason this human fascination with spiritual faith baffles you and confounds you. Indeed, inherent human behavioral characteristics, are never without purpose or function, and for a scientific mind to try and understand this phenomenon while not accepting God, is extremely difficult to resolve with logic, I understand. Perhaps this is why even Einstein admitted that God doesn't roll the dice?
 
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