Fourth Anniversary

[Cypress]

But PNAC was written and signed years before 9/11. What was their theory then?

The case Palast lays out is very complicated, and I might have to read those chapters twice.

But, my impression is that the NeoCon ideology about Iraq really had nothing to do with allowing iraqis free will to choose their own government; i.e., democracy.

PNAC made quite clear that it was all about oil, and the strategic importance of iraq. What was left unsaid, but which Palast surmises, is that Iraq is the lynchpin in destroying OPEC. And by destroying OPEC, you are in fact eliminating the Saudi control of the world economy.

 

[Cancel7]

The case Palast lays out is very complicated, and I might have to read those chapters twice.

But, my impression is that the NeoCon ideology about Iraq really had nothing to do with allowing iraqis free will to choose their own government; i.e., democracy.

PNAC made quite clear that it was all about oil, and the strategic importance of iraq. What was left unsaid, but which Palast surmises, is that Iraq is the lynchpin in destroying OPEC. And by destroying OPEC, you are in fact eliminating the Saudi control of the world economy.

And 9/11 was the convenient excuse. It sure helped a lot of people to realize their goals.

 

[Cypress]

LOL. It makes sense when you think about the fight against the nukes, that they often do support terrorism and several other options. Once again, the goal wasn't to have the US surround them, it was to have others. They believed that Iran could be theirs without a fight, then we could turn to Saudi Arabia and other regimes.

First, there's no evidence Iran has nukes, or is even close to haviung nukes. I didn't fall for bush's claims about iraqi WMD, and I'm not falling for it again. Does Iran probably have a research progam in weaponizing nuclear materials? Probably. They've had one since the 1970s, when we supported them. And when we didn't complain about their nuclear research.

Second, Iran has nothing to do with sunni extremism. In fact, with clever diplomacy, we might could get their aid in fighting their blood enemy: sunni extremists. Does Iran support shia groups like Hezzbollah? Yes. But, that's mainly a problem for Israel, not North America. I think Israel can defend itself.

So making Iran this huge lynchpin in winning the war on (sunni) international terrorism, doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[Cancel7]

First, there's no evidence Iran has nukes, or is even close to haviung nukes. I didn't fall for bush's claims about iraqi WMD, and I'm not falling for it again. Does Iran probably have a research progam in weaponizing nuclear materials? Probably. They've had one since the 1970s, when we supported them. And when we didn't complain about their nuclear research.

Second, Iran has nothing to do with sunni extremism. In fact, with clever diplomacy, we mnight could get their aid in fighting their blood enemy: sunni extremists. Does Iran support shia groups like Hezzbollah? Yes. But, that's mainly a problem for Israel, not North America. I think Israel can defend itself.

So making Iran this huge lynchpin in winning the war on (sunni) international terrorism, doesn't make a lick of sense.

But you can't say "Israel can defend itself" in this country, and get elected to a school board, no less a national office. You can say that about any other country in the world, but not Israel. What if a Democrat started saying, well, we have to invade Iran because France feels threatened? Or, Canada feels threatened? The American public would go apeshit. What has France done for us lately? And everybody hates Canadians, for some reason that escapes me.

But if you want to get elected, you must say that you will defend Israel to the very death. I mean, to the very death of other people's children, of course.

 

[Cypress]

But you can't say "Israel can defend itself" in this country, and get elected to a school board, no less a national office. You can say that about any other country in the world, but not Israel. What if a Democrat started saying, well, we have to invade Iran because France feels threatened? Or, Canada feels threatened? The American public would go apeshit. What has France done for us lately? And everybody hates Canadians, for some reason that escapes me.

But if you want to get elected, you must say that you will defend Israel to the very death. I mean, to the very death of other people's children, of course.

Great point.

But we sell or give israel billions of $$$ of weapons a year. Aren't they supposed to be defending themselves with those weapons? Do they really need american soldiers to defend them? I think not.

So, by saying the Israel can and should defend itself against Hezbollah, does not suggest that we're just casting israel to the side to fend for itself.

My point is, in the strategic interest of the United States, we have to address sunni jihaddists and sunni international terrorists. THAT is the problem. Shia are only like 10 of 15% of the muslim population on the planet. And they're very limited in geographic extent.

It behooves us to really understand the muslim world, and the goals and motivations of anti-american international terrorists. Which AREN'T shia muslims.

 

[leaningright]

So let's accidently nuke Israel and that solves our problems.

I say that tongue in cheek but just think of what the M.E. might have been like had the zionests not had to build a country out of land that wasn't theirs back in the 40's. BTW, you're absolutely right Darla.

 

[Cancel7]

So let's accidently nuke Israel and that solves our problems.

I say that tongue in cheek but just think of what the M.E. might have been like had the zionests not had to build a country out of land that wasn't theirs back in the 40's. BTW, you're absolutely right Darla.

That's a really interesting question, and I agree with the premise. However, though it probably would have been a lot more peaceful, how long would the US have left it that way? In other words, if we didn't have Israel as an excuse to intervene in the Middle East, we would have just come up with another one I think. We're in it for the oil, and when our interests line up with Israel's interests, all to the better. But we play for our own interests, primarily. That's what I think anyway.

 

[Cypress]

So let's accidently nuke Israel and that solves our problems.

I say that tongue in cheek but just think of what the M.E. might have been like had the zionests not had to build a country out of land that wasn't theirs back in the 40's. BTW, you're absolutely right Darla.

They're (Israel) ultimately going to have to give back the occupied arab lands, and give the palestinians the west bank. And perhaps east Jerusalem will have to be under some form of international control, so that muslims, christians, and jews don't fight each other for control.


I often hear some people say that if you make peace with the arabs, they're still going to try to kill you. For those people, I simply refer them to the peace deals between Egypt and Israel, and Jordan and Israel. Since those peace deals were inked, there hasn't been one attack by either egypt or jordan, on israel.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

So let's accidently nuke Israel and that solves our problems.

I say that tongue in cheek but just think of what the M.E. might have been like had the zionests not had to build a country out of land that wasn't theirs back in the 40's. BTW, you're absolutely right Darla.

I've often thought that the best, most equitable way to deal with Jerusalem would be to simply nuke it into oblivion. Look Maw, no bone of contention. They've been fighting over that damned city for, what, 2,500 years? More?

There's a great scene towards the end of the somewhat overwrought but still worthwhile movie The Kingdom of Heaven, in which our hero turns to Salah al-Din and asks "What is Jerusalem worth?" The Sultan smiles and says "Nothing" and then walks away, only to turn back and say "and everything."

 

[Damocles]

I still think Jerusalem should become an International Protectorate, take it out of the question of "ownership" between those two groups.

 

[Cancel7]

They're (Israel) ultimately going to have to give back the occupied arab lands, and give the palestinians the west bank. And perhaps east Jerusalem will have to be under some form of international control, so that muslims, christians, and jews don't fight each other for control.


I often hear some people say that if you make peace with the arabs, they're still going to try to kill you. For those people, I simply refer them to the peace deals between Egypt and Israel, and Jordan and Israel. Since those peace deals were inked, there hasn't been one attack by either egypt or jordan, on israel.

The people in those settlements are religious fanatics, completely out of their gourds. There was an article in the NY Times recently about some very recent settlers. They just moved in because that's how God wants it. All of the death, over a few thousand religious maniacs. It's sickening.

 

[Cancel7]

I still think Jerusalem should become an International Protectorate, take it out of the question of "ownership" between those two groups.

You start out your sentence with "I think." That's a mistake right there. This question is not about thinking, it's about feeling and overwrought emotionalism, and biblical prophecies. It's mass insanity which has led directly to the death of an untold number of human beings.

 

[Cypress]

The people in those settlements are religious fanatics, completely out of their gourds. There was an article in the NY Times recently about some very recent settlers. They just moved in because that's how God wants it. All of the death, over a few thousand religious maniacs. It's sickening.

You're totally right. It's crazy.

And you know what? I've read that those israeli settlers in the west bank, piss off a LOT of israeli citizens in Tel Aviv, Haifa, and throughout Israel. Because they have to spend inordinate amounts of blood and treasure defending a few thousand jewish fanatic settlers in the west bank.

 

[Cancel7]

You're totally right. It's crazy.

And you know what? I've read that those israeli settlers in the west bank, piss off a LOT of israeli citizens in Tel Aviv, Haifa, and throughout Israel. Because they have to spend inordinate amounts of blood and treasure defending a few thousand jewish fanatic settlers in the west bank.

Yeah, they have a much more open debate about it in Israel than we do here. They don't have to worry about being called "anti-semetic" I guess. I don't know if the term "self-hating Jew" is thrown around there, but I do know that it is here. We shut down debate that way in this country.

 

[uscitizen]

But they could still FOLLOW US HOME. That's why we're in Iraq now, can't you keep up? We can't leave because that's what they're waiting for. They have their bags all packed, and the second we go, they follow us. They don't know about google earth yet, and can't find their way here unless we play right into their trap, and bring our troops home.

Well if we had not invaded and pissed them off worse not wo many would have their bags packed to come over here.
This is per many "experts" not just me, ie DOD, CIA and others.

Our invasion has actually made us less safe. Keep up ? I am ahead of the curve on this and always was. I was not only against the war I was against the invasion of Iraq.

 

[uscitizen]

That sounds ok Damo, an international protectorate. An no weapons except for the peacekeeprs are allowed. both personal weapons and WMD's.