Greenspan: Nationalize Banks .. Oh no! .. SOCIALISM

[blackascoal]

BAC,


With all due respect brother, where has socialism ever worked? Do not name Sweden, France, etc. as examples; these are not socialist countries, but capitalist social welfare states, and even they are downsizing.

Socialism = public ownership of production. Countries which have attempted this include the former USSR, China, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Cuba, Mozambique, and a few others, all of which slaughtered millions of their own people.

Indeed, it seems pure socialism and mass democide go hand-in-hand... why?

Sweden and France have many of the same aspects of socialism that I believe in, and most pure capitialist don't want them mentioned because they are successful.

Additionally, both Cuba and Venezuela have enjoyed many successes although one is more purely socialist than the other, they both share many of the same socialist principles as Sweden and France.

China owns us brother.

More than socialist countries have slaughtered their own people, but capiltialists have a penchant for slaughtering other people .. as we did in Iraq, as the British have done .. and we also have a penchant for setting up puppet dictators who enslave their own people to satisfy our needs .. as we did in Iran and other nations.

The model best suited for America is a form of democratic socialism unique to America .. as are all forms of political ideology.

Whether you agree with the models in other nations or not, socialism is already here and ain't going anywhere .. in fact, nationalized healthcare is supported by 70% of Americans .. and it's coming.

 

[blackascoal]

I always love the way you guys play loose with the term socialism. Socialism equals welfare state policies like social security in the US but specifically means ownership of the means of production when discussing welfare state policies like those found in Nazi Germany.

Well, I guess I should have said Greenspan has not fully embraced socialism.

I don't recall mentioning a number of people that wish to do away with SS. There will be a large number, soon enough.

I am glad that you are pleased by the one program/policy most responsible for the rise of the military industrial complex.

I know, socialism means Marx and Lenin and nothing else.



Get real, of course SOCIAL Security is a form of socialism .. but you can call it whatever you want.

A large number of people wanting to get rid of it .. laughable.

The good news is that no one listened to the knuckleheads on the right when they tried to privatize it.

 

[Timshel]

I know, socialism means Marx and Lenin and nothing else.



Get real, of course SOCIAL Security is a form of socialism .. but you can call it whatever you want.

A large number of people wanting to get rid of it .. laughable.

The good news is that no one listened to the knuckleheads on the right when they tried to privatize it.

I am glad you agree, the Nazis were socialists.

The shit is going to hit the fan on Social Security very soon. What ever success it has enjoyed it fully dependent on workers the market.

More than socialist countries have slaughtered their own people, but capiltialists have a penchant for slaughtering other people .. as we did in Iraq, as the British have done .. and we also have a penchant for setting up puppet dictators who enslave their own people to satisfy our needs .. as we did in Iran and other nations.

Where does the government get the money for that slaughter? Your beautiful socialist security.

 

[Epicurus]

I know, socialism means Marx and Lenin and nothing else.



Get real, of course SOCIAL Security is a form of socialism .. but you can call it whatever you want.

A large number of people wanting to get rid of it .. laughable.

The good news is that no one listened to the knuckleheads on the right when they tried to privatize it.

See that is interesting that you say that, because when we were having this debate last week several different liberals tried to assure me that we have in no way, no form, and no shape been influenced by socialism.

 

[Bonestorm]

See that is interesting that you say that, because when we were having this debate last week several different liberals tried to assure me that we have in no way, no form, and no shape been influenced by socialism.

That's not quite correct and BAC is hardly the last word on the issue.

To clarify, while influenced by socialism, policies such as social security are not "socialist."

 

[Epicurus]

Why do you think that Social Security is not socialist? This is a hard thing semantically to argue about, but it seems so common sense I almost think you are playing dumb.

I can provide you several reasons why I think it is. Socialists proposed it, socialists advocated its passage, and socialists advocate its expansion and oppose its privatization.

 

[Epicurus]

A government-insured retirement pension program like Social Security was part of the Socialist Party's 1912 manifesto.

 

[Onceler]

Why do you think that Social Security is not socialist? This is a hard thing semantically to argue about, but it seems so common sense I almost think you are playing dumb.

I can provide you several reasons why I think it is. Socialists proposed it, socialists advocated its passage, and socialists advocate its expansion and oppose its privatization.

Epi - it's already been pointed out to you that the fact that Socialists support something doesn't make that something "Socialism."

Social Security has nothing to do w/ the means of production, or even with equitable payscales. It ain't socialism.

 

[Epicurus]

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Socialism

An economic and social theory that seeks to maximize wealth and opportunity for all people through public ownership and control of industries and social services.

The general goal of socialism is to maximize wealth and opportunity, or to minimize human suffering, through public control of industry and social services. Socialism is an alternative to capitalism, where the means and profits of production are privately held. Socialism became a strong international movement in the early nineteenth century as the Industrial Revolution brought great changes to production methods and capacities and led to a decline in working conditions. Socialist writers and agitators in the United States helped fuel the labor movement but were often branded as radicals and jailed under a variety of laws that punished attempts to overthrow the government. Although government programs such as Social Security and Welfare incorporate some socialist tenets, socialism has never posed a serious challenge to capitalism in the United States.

The bolded is something we can probably both agree on. At least I hope that you are willing to concede that Social Security incorporates "some socialist tenets", to put it lightly. For my part I certainly agree that there hasn't really been a serious threat of abandoning capitalism for wholesale government control of industries.

 

[Onceler]

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Socialism

An economic and social theory that seeks to maximize wealth and opportunity for all people through public ownership and control of industries and social services.

The general goal of socialism is to maximize wealth and opportunity, or to minimize human suffering, through public control of industry and social services. Socialism is an alternative to capitalism, where the means and profits of production are privately held. Socialism became a strong international movement in the early nineteenth century as the Industrial Revolution brought great changes to production methods and capacities and led to a decline in working conditions. Socialist writers and agitators in the United States helped fuel the labor movement but were often branded as radicals and jailed under a variety of laws that punished attempts to overthrow the government. Although government programs such as Social Security and Welfare incorporate some socialist tenets, socialism has never posed a serious challenge to capitalism in the United States.

The bolded is something we can probably both agree on. At least I hope that you are willing to concede that Social Security incorporates "some socialist tenets", to put it lightly. For my part I certainly agree that there hasn't really been a serious threat of abandoning capitalism for wholesale government control of industries.

I won't argue that, but you know as well as I do that when people starting throwing the term "Socialism" around in a debate, especially on this board, they are not taking this nuanced position. They are generally fear-mongering and misusing the term.

 

[Damocles]

I won't argue that, but you know as well as I do that when people starting throwing the term "Socialism" around in a debate, especially on this board, they are not taking this nuanced position. They are generally fear-mongering and misusing the term.

ZOMGzerS11!!1shiftplusone!!

He said Socialism! You Communist bastige!

 

[Epicurus]

I won't argue that, but you know as well as I do that when people starting throwing the term "Socialism" around in a debate, especially on this board, they are not taking this nuanced position. They are generally fear-mongering and misusing the term.

Well I speak only for myself, and not for some Limbaugh nut who thinks that Obama is socialist and McCain is not because Obama's top tax bracket is 3% higher. It just seems truly absurd to me to deny that socialism has had some influence on our policies. Libertarianism certainly has influenced some of our policies, and libertarianism is nowhere near as influential as socialism was in its heyday.

But yes people do throw the term around without even thinking about what they mean by it. Personally, using a broad definition of the term I think every major party candidate (except maybe Goldwater) since FDR has been technically a socialist because they support the preservation of socialist programs and institutions. I think your reaction to the word is colored by public perception of the term.

 

[Timshel]

Epi - it's already been pointed out to you that the fact that Socialists support something doesn't make that something "Socialism."

Social Security has nothing to do w/ the means of production, or even with equitable payscales. It ain't socialism.

Okay, social security is not socialist. France, Sweden, Nazi Germany, etc. are not examples of socialism. Only the USSR, China (before reforms), Cuba, etc. are socialists.

 

[Onceler]

Well I speak only for myself, and not for some Limbaugh nut who thinks that Obama is socialist and McCain is not because Obama's top tax bracket is 3% higher. It just seems truly absurd to me to deny that socialism has had some influence on our policies. Libertarianism certainly has influenced some of our policies, and libertarianism is nowhere near as influential as socialism was in its heyday.

But yes people do throw the term around without even thinking about what they mean by it. Personally, using a broad definition of the term I think every major party candidate (except maybe Goldwater) since FDR has been technically a socialist because they support the preservation of socialist programs and institutions. I think your reaction to the word is colored by public perception of the term.

It's more colored by what I perceive as Socialism, which is gov't control of industry. The U.S. may have policies that are influenced by a loose definition of socialism, but we are & always will be a free market country, with the vast majority of our businesses run & controlled privately. I personally don't believe in unregulated, laissez-faire capitalism, but I'm generally a believer in the free market & private control of business.

 

[Topspin]

Was the RTC called socialist?
I don't know I was 29 and didn't care shit for politics at the time.

 

[Immanuel]

I like the "high priest" remark. Boy, what objective reporting. lol

Greenspan continues to rationalize his own failures, but he is still far from embracing socialism. The beauty of socialism is that it soon implodes.

Well, the thing is that the U.S. of A is heading in that direction as well.

I am glad you agree, the Nazis were socialists.

The shit is going to hit the fan on Social Security very soon. What ever success it has enjoyed it fully dependent on workers the market.


Where does the government get the money for that slaughter? Your beautiful socialist security.

I'm not so sure about this. It won't hit the fan until they stop paying benefits. I don't see that happening. There is no way in Heck that the government will let this goose that lays the golden egg die. If they will spend billions of dollars to bail the banks out and the Auto Industry and $787 Billion to make every thing look peachy keen, when the time comes they'll spend trillions of dollars to keep Social Security trudging along.

Immie

 

[Socrtease]

I know, socialism means Marx and Lenin and nothing else.



Get real, of course SOCIAL Security is a form of socialism .. but you can call it whatever you want.

A large number of people wanting to get rid of it .. laughable.

The good news is that no one listened to the knuckleheads on the right when they tried to privatize it.

Also means Mao. His cultural revolution was a real boon for the socialist Utopia of China. Musical instruments destroyed on a massive scale. Books burned, authors imprisoned, paintings destroyed. But hey everyone got to wear the same little pajamas. And the US in modern times has not killed people on the scale of Mao or Stalin.