Healthcare in America - Myths Refuted

[Diuretic]

Because you're a moron. I don't have to define the characterisitics of "socialized medicine" to discuss the negative aspects of it. Mostly it's the same list, anyway.

So you use a slogan without understanding its meaning? Is that, somehow "spurious"?

 

[Lao Tse]

So you use a slogan without understanding its meaning? Is that, somehow "spurious"?

I understand it. I'm not wasting time on your useless word mangling exercises. Address my concerns about corruption. You talk a lot, but say little, being mostly moronic.

 

[Diuretic]

I understand it. I'm not wasting time on your useless word mangling exercises. Address my concerns about corruption. You talk a lot, but say little, being mostly moronic.

I can't properly address your claims. I'll ask for evidence of your claims at the right time. And then I'll tell you why the US health care system is in crisis and itself is mired in corruption - here's an early teaser:

Source: LA Times

One of the state's largest health insurers set goals and paid bonuses based in part on how many individual policyholders were dropped and how much money was saved.

Woodland Hills-based Health Net Inc. avoided paying $35.5 million in medical expenses by rescinding about 1,600 policies between 2000 and 2006. During that period, it paid its senior analyst in charge of cancellations more than $20,000 in bonuses based in part on her meeting or exceeding annual targets for revoking policies, documents disclosed Thursday showed.

The revelation that the health plan had cancellation goals and bonuses comes amid a storm of controversy over the industry-wide but long-hidden practice of rescinding coverage after expensive medical treatments have been authorized.

These cancellations have been the recent focus of intense scrutiny by lawmakers, state regulators and consumer advocates. Although these "rescissions" are only a small portion of the companies' overall business, they typically leave sick patients with crushing medical bills and no way to obtain needed treatment.


Read more: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-insure9nov09,0,30...

But not much point in continuing until I know that you know what you're talking about.

 

[Lao Tse]

I can't properly address your claims. I'll ask for evidence of your claims at the right time. And then I'll tell you why the US health care system is in crisis and itself is mired in corruption - here's an early teaser:



But not much point in continuing until I know that you know what you're talking about.

In your conception of socialized medicine is there governmental approval of vendor lists and contracts for service? This the only relevant facet re: my concerns. This is what Im talking about. Don't be such an assminded dullard.

 

[Diuretic]

In your conception of socialized medicine is there governmental approval of vendor lists and contracts for service? This the only relevant facet re: my concerns. This is what Im talking about. Don't be such an assminded dullard.

I don't have a concept of "socialised medicine". I don't think in slogans nor do I use talking points. I was asking you how you defined "socialised medicine". When I get that I'll have some idea of what you're thinking and then I can discuss your objections to it. You've already indicated an objection to monopolies. I agree, monopolies are bad for everyone except the monopoly. But that's too general a position when we're looking at something as specific as health care policy.

 

[Lao Tse]

I don't have a concept of "socialised medicine".

So when you were asking me to define it , how would you know if I was right?

I don't think in slogans nor do I use talking points. I was asking you how you defined "socialised medicine". When I get that I'll have some idea of what you're thinking and then I can discuss your objections to it. You've already indicated an objection to monopolies. I agree, monopolies are bad for everyone except the monopoly. But that's too general a position when we're looking at something as specific as health care policy.

In the system you want, call it whatever, is there government approval of vendor lists and contracts for service?

 

[Diuretic]

So when you were asking me to define it , how would you know if I was right?

I'm not worried about you being "right" or "wrong", the thought never even entered my mind. I'm interested to know the defining characteristics of this thing called "socialised medicine". I don't need a spray over its alleged bad points because until I know if it's got two legs or four legs I won't know how it perambulates. You need to tell me what your vision of "socialised medicine" is. Then I'll be able to engage your argument.

In the system you want, call it whatever, is there government approval of vendor lists and contracts for service?

We jumped ahead didn't we? I'm happy to discuss a real system of healthcare, not an abstract model, if you wish. So if you rephrased your question so that it addresses a rel world situation rather than somethiing hypothetical that you can then use as a piñata, that would be useful.

 

[Lao Tse]

I'm not worried about you being "right" or "wrong", the thought never even entered my mind. I'm interested to know the defining characteristics of this thing called "socialised medicine". I don't need a spray over its alleged bad points because until I know if it's got two legs or four legs I won't know how it perambulates. You need to tell me what your vision of "socialised medicine" is. Then I'll be able to engage your argument.



We jumped ahead didn't we? I'm happy to discuss a real system of healthcare, not an abstract model, if you wish. So if you rephrased your question so that it addresses a rel world situation rather than somethiing hypothetical that you can then use as a piñata, that would be useful.

Are you willing to discuss the single issue of government controlled vendor lists and government approved contracts? You seem retarded. Seriously. You refuse to discuss anything and try to wiggle away with unmerited condescension and evasion.

 

[Diuretic]

Are you willing to discuss the single issue of government controlled vendor lists and government approved contracts? You seem retarded. Seriously. You refuse to discuss anything and try to wiggle away with unmerited condescension and evasion.

I've explained why you're all over the place in this discussion. Until you can describe the features of "socialised medicine" then we're not going to get far and, importantly for you, you're not going to benefit from my knowledge. But that's your loss.

If you see "the single issue of government controlled vendor lists" and "government approved contracts" as two of the features of "socialised medicine", then note them and find some more and off we go. But until you do that I'm left with the very strong impression that you're merely mouthing a slogan without really understanding what it means. Hardly a solid grounding for a meaningful discussion I would think.

 

[Lao Tse]

I've explained why you're all over the place in this discussion. Until you can describe the features of "socialised medicine" then we're not going to get far and, importantly for you, you're not going to benefit from my knowledge. But that's your loss.

If you see "the single issue of government controlled vendor lists" and "government approved contracts" as two of the features of "socialised medicine", then note them and find some more and off we go. But until you do that I'm left with the very strong impression that you're merely mouthing a slogan without really understanding what it means. Hardly a solid grounding for a meaningful discussion I would think.

But Im not all over the place. I've been consistently attempting to discuss one issue, the massive opportunity for corruption and payola which would result from government vendor lists and contracts etc.

This one feature rules the whole plan, so Im really not interested in going further. Can you refute my main concern, or even discuss it rationally?

 

[Diuretic]

But Im not all over the place. I've been consistently attempting to discuss one issue, the massive opportunity for corruption and payola which would result from government vendor lists and contracts etc.

This one feature rules the whole plan, so Im really not interested in going further. Can you refute my main concern, or even discuss it rationally?

No, you've assumed that there will be "the massive opportunity for corruption and payola which would result from government vendor lists and contracts etc." Now if you want me to respond to that I'll do so.

No there would not be a massive opportunity for corruption and payola which would result from government vendor lists and contracts etc.

So your hypothetical assumption is met by my hypothetical denial of your hypothetical assumption.

 

[Lao Tse]

No, you've assumed that there will be "the massive opportunity for corruption and payola which would result from government vendor lists and contracts etc." Now if you want me to respond to that I'll do so.


No there would not be a massive opportunity for corruption and payola which would result from government vendor lists and contracts etc.

So your hypothetical assumption is met by my hypothetical denial of your assumption.

SO then you're saying there will not be approval by the government of vendors and service contracts?

 

[Diuretic]

SO then you're saying there will not be approval by the government of vendors and service contracts?

Find anywhere in my posts where I said that. When you find that I didn't say that then you need to ask yourself why you are now finding it necessary to put words in my mouth.

After you've done that re-think your response and try again, this time do so with at least a modicum of intellectual honesty.

 

[Lao Tse]

Find anywhere in my posts where I said that. When you find that I didn't say that then you need to ask yourself why you are now finding it necessary to put words in my mouth.

After you've done that re-think your response and try again, this time do so with at least a modicum of intellectual honesty.

You won't address the fucking issue. Because you KNOW government vendor lists and government control of contracts is inevitable.

You rethink your whole approach to human interaction. You suck at it right now.

 

[Timshel]

Enough pedantic bs. You're evading.

 

[Diuretic]

You won't address the fucking issue. Because you KNOW government vendor lists and government control of contracts is inevitable.

You rethink your whole approach to human interaction. You suck at it right now.

There is no "issue" to be addressed. You've come up with some sort of allegation about this uknown, undefined thing called "socialised medicine" and you can't tell me what you mean by the term "socialised medicine". First rule, define your terms.

As for your observations on my human interaction skills - since you know nothing about me, who I am, what I've done, what I do for a living - beyond words on a screen I think I can safely say that you don't have enough evidence to pronounce on my human interaction skills. That would be as valid as making an observation about my typing skills just from seeing my post suddenly appear on your screen.

 

[Timshel]

How will the government control costs. Many are now pointing to France's system as a model (btw, I would not call France's system socialized medicine, they socialized insurance mostly). But France is facing the same sort of issues we are, skyrocketing costs. They are going to have to stop being so generous and that means they will have to start taking measures to control costs, which is likely to lead to denial of certain medical services.

 

[Diuretic]

How will the government control costs. Many are now pointing to France's system as a model (btw, I would not call France's system socialized medicine, they socialized insurance mostly). But France is facing the same sort of issues we are, skyrocketing costs. They are going to have to stop being so generous and that means they will have to start taking measures to control costs, which is likely to lead to denial of certain medical services.

Good question. I'm not evading your question because as I said, it's interesting. I've asked myself that same question and I keep going back to look at another question. Why are health care costs increasing? And frankly I don't know why they're increasing. I suppose I could, given a bit of time, come up with an educated guess. Getting the answer to why costs are increasing will lead to a solution that deals with increasing costs.

I know the medical profession here has discussed the ethical issues of providing or denying health care to individuals. And that's related to costs and of course to resources. I can see a time in the future when older people will be allowed to die (one would hope painlessly) because the judgement of the medical profession would be that to continue to treat them would be a waste of resouces that could be best used elsewhere.

 

[Lao Tse]

There is no "issue" to be addressed. You've come up with some sort of allegation about this uknown, undefined thing called "socialised medicine" and you can't tell me what you mean by the term "socialised medicine". First rule, define your terms.

As for your observations on my human interaction skills - since you know nothing about me, who I am, what I've done, what I do for a living - beyond words on a screen I think I can safely say that you don't have enough evidence to pronounce on my human interaction skills. That would be as valid as making an observation about my typing skills just from seeing my post suddenly appear on your screen.

Fuck my terms. Let's discuss your vision of what you want. Does it involve the government even? Does it involve the government choosing vendors and giving them contracts, similar to the way the government DOES EVERYTHING IT DOES? Stop being a petulant child.

 

[Diuretic]

Fuck my terms. Let's discuss your vision of what you want. Does it involve the government even? Does it involve the government choosing vendors and giving them contracts, similar to the way the government DOES EVERYTHING IT DOES? Stop being a petulant child.

As Miss Piggy might say, "moi? Petulant?"

Ah, my vision. My vision is of free health care available to all who need it.