How Higher Education Can Win Back America

[Mott the Hoople]

The #1 problem is the lack of education that takes place at the universities now.

Yea? What University did you attend?

You and I would be in agreement if you were complaining about the Humanities departments have an oversize influence at many Universities but you can’t actually blame that on the Universities. They’re just singing to the choir because many youngsters from affluent families aren’t interested in the more rigorous work required for learning hard skills such as STEM (and I don’t consider social sciences a STEM field), Arts and business (and yea Art is a hard major because it’s an applied field that’s might be easy to learn on paper but really hard to do at a high level in practice).

So the Universities are just giving the Market what it wants. That is reinforced by corporations who actually prefer people with soft college majors in the specious stereotype that persons with soft college majors have better people and leadership skills.

So the Universities are not the drivers here. They’re just responding to market demand. In corporate reality where you went to college means far more than what you actually studied and don’t BS yourself that in the corporate world that matters far more than competence.

But you’re painting with to broad of a stroke here.

You could make a very good argument than a tradesman with master craftsman status will earn far more than someone with a Woman’s Studies degree.

Having said that by no means are all college students taking soft majors. A lot of us do take very rigorous majors and we have to bust our asses to learn concepts and skills that are incredibly hard to learn.

I personally come from a working class background and had to overcome a lot of obstacles to even get into college. I busted ass in my Pre-Med Major (Biology Major with a minor in chemistry). Got accepted into graduate school to study Human biology and then returned to College ten years later to do graduate studies in materials science/engineering.

So I can tell you objectively that I received an excellent education that did a great job of preparing me to be a highly skilled professional in my field. One in which I earn a pretty good income.

So I am justifiably proud of what I accomplished in higher education as I beat the odds for someone with my background and though I do have a high IQ it wasn’t that which earned me my academic success but hard assed work for 7 year as an impoverished student.

But those were my goals and I’m no snob about it. I have worked as colleagues with many tradesmen over the years who were incredibly skilled and creative and worked every bit as hard as I did to learn their profession. In fact in my early career several of them mentored me and I will always feel indebted to them for what they taught me.

So it’s not the Universities that have lost their way. It’s our society that has lost its way in valuing education. Society now sees higher education as a status symbol as opposed to a means of bettering themselves as a person.

I mean how many of us know morons who got into a prestigious university not by merit but due their social status of their family, took a Mickey Mouse major, then landed a high paying job after school because they have a Harvard diploma. The real truth is that other than the social status gained there isn’t a dimes bit of difference in the quality of education between Harvard and State U.

So I guess what I’m saying to you is by claiming the Universities are the problem you’re confusing the symptoms with the underlying real problem.

 

[Into the Night]

So while some universities have eliminated tuition for those with few resources, students from the bottom 20 percent of the nation’s income distribution still make up only about 5 percent of the student bodies at selective institutions. This hasn’t changed much in 100 years.

Elite education has lost the trust of many Americans, in no small part because of how it solidifies the advantages of wealth. The fact that many schools still give preferential treatment to children of their alumni just adds insult to injury.

Opinion | How Higher Education Can Win America Back

Jefferson believed in the egalitarian potential of education, and we should, too.

www.nytimes.com

What insult?? What injury??

 

[Into the Night]

You seem insane.

Mantra 1d. Lame.

 

[Diogenes]

Yea? What University did you attend?

You and I would be in agreement if you were complaining about the Humanities departments have an oversize influence at many Universities but you can’t actually blame that on the Universities. They’re just singing to the choir because many youngsters from affluent families aren’t interested in the more rigorous work required for learning hard skills such as STEM (and I don’t consider social sciences a STEM field), Arts and business (and yea Art is a hard major because it’s an applied field that’s might be easy to learn on paper but really hard to do at a high level in practice).

So the Universities are just giving the Market what it wants. That is reinforced by corporations who actually prefer people with soft college majors in the specious stereotype that persons with soft college majors have better people and leadership skills.

So the Universities are not the drivers here. They’re just responding to market demand. In corporate reality where you went to college means far more than what you actually studied and don’t BS yourself that in the corporate world that matters far more than competence.

But you’re painting with to broad of a stroke here.

You could make a very good argument than a tradesman with master craftsman status will earn far more than someone with a Woman’s Studies degree.

Having said that by no means are all college students taking soft majors. A lot of us do take very rigorous majors and we have to bust our asses to learn concepts and skills that are incredibly hard to learn.

I personally come from a working class background and had to overcome a lot of obstacles to even get into college. I busted ass in my Pre-Med Major (Biology Major with a minor in chemistry). Got accepted into graduate school to study Human biology and then returned to College ten years later to do graduate studies in materials science/engineering.

So I can tell you objectively that I received an excellent education that did a great job of preparing me to be a highly skilled professional in my field. One in which I earn a pretty good income.

So I am justifiably proud of what I accomplished in higher education as I beat the odds for someone with my background and though I do have a high IQ it wasn’t that which earned me my academic success but hard assed work for 7 year as an impoverished student.

But those were my goals and I’m no snob about it. I have worked as colleagues with many tradesmen over the years who were incredibly skilled and creative and worked every bit as hard as I did to learn their profession. In fact in my early career several of them mentored me and I will always feel indebted to them for what they taught me.

So it’s not the Universities that have lost their way. It’s our society that has lost its way in valuing education. Society now sees higher education as a status symbol as opposed to a means of bettering themselves as a person.

I mean how many of us know morons who got into a prestigious university not by merit but due their social status of their family, took a Mickey Mouse major, then landed a high paying job after school because they have a Harvard diploma. The real truth is that other than the social status gained there isn’t a dimes bit of difference in the quality of education between Harvard and State U.

So I guess what I’m saying to you is by claiming the Universities are the problem you’re confusing the symptoms with the underlying real problem.

Opinions, Ohioan?

 

[Hawkeye10]

Yea? What University did you attend?

You and I would be in agreement if you were complaining about the Humanities departments have an oversize influence at many Universities but you can’t actually blame that on the Universities. They’re just singing to the choir because many youngsters from affluent families aren’t interested in the more rigorous work required for learning hard skills such as STEM (and I don’t consider social sciences a STEM field), Arts and business (and yea Art is a hard major because it’s an applied field that’s might be easy to learn on paper but really hard to do at a high level in practice).

So the Universities are just giving the Market what it wants. That is reinforced by corporations who actually prefer people with soft college majors in the specious stereotype that persons with soft college majors have better people and leadership skills.

So the Universities are not the drivers here. They’re just responding to market demand. In corporate reality where you went to college means far more than what you actually studied and don’t BS yourself that in the corporate world that matters far more than competence.

But you’re painting with to broad of a stroke here.

You could make a very good argument than a tradesman with master craftsman status will earn far more than someone with a Woman’s Studies degree.

Having said that by no means are all college students taking soft majors. A lot of us do take very rigorous majors and we have to bust our asses to learn concepts and skills that are incredibly hard to learn.

I personally come from a working class background and had to overcome a lot of obstacles to even get into college. I busted ass in my Pre-Med Major (Biology Major with a minor in chemistry). Got accepted into graduate school to study Human biology and then returned to College ten years later to do graduate studies in materials science/engineering.

So I can tell you objectively that I received an excellent education that did a great job of preparing me to be a highly skilled professional in my field. One in which I earn a pretty good income.

So I am justifiably proud of what I accomplished in higher education as I beat the odds for someone with my background and though I do have a high IQ it wasn’t that which earned me my academic success but hard assed work for 7 year as an impoverished student.

But those were my goals and I’m no snob about it. I have worked as colleagues with many tradesmen over the years who were incredibly skilled and creative and worked every bit as hard as I did to learn their profession. In fact in my early career several of them mentored me and I will always feel indebted to them for what they taught me.

So it’s not the Universities that have lost their way. It’s our society that has lost its way in valuing education. Society now sees higher education as a status symbol as opposed to a means of bettering themselves as a person.

I mean how many of us know morons who got into a prestigious university not by merit but due their social status of their family, took a Mickey Mouse major, then landed a high paying job after school because they have a Harvard diploma. The real truth is that other than the social status gained there isn’t a dimes bit of difference in the quality of education between Harvard and State U.

So I guess what I’m saying to you is by claiming the Universities are the problem you’re confusing the symptoms with the underlying real problem.

Michigan State Electrical Engineering, mid 80's, mid collapse....a story that I told in depth over at DP but maybe not here.

Guno can verify.

 

[Hawkeye10]

The Michigan State library has a lot to do with how I got to where I am....at the time it was of fantastic quality.

 

[Hawkeye10]

The entire time I was at MSU I lived at the Hedrick House Student Co-Operative....the same place my Dad lived when he impregnated my Mom on accident....at least on his part.

There are so many stories.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Opinions, Ohioan?

No…learned experience from the school of hard knocks.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Michigan State Electrical Engineering, mid 80's, mid collapse....a story that I told in depth over at DP but maybe not here.

Guno can verify.

Good school and one hell of a tough major. Now you have me wondering with you being a Spartan and having the handle Hawkeye if your from Iowa or a fan of James Fenimore Cooper?

I used to work closely with an electrical engineer who was a Princeton graduate and a bonafide eccentric. At first he thought of me as a light weight as a bio major until one day we went out for some beers after work and he was discussing the electrical control mechanisms he was implementing into our process and I brought up how what he was talking about applied to physiology in the study of homeostasis as most homeostatic control mechanisms are closed loop, negative feedback control mechanisms that follow the same laws of physics as electrical control mechanisms. He and I used to butt heads a lot as though he was a very competent electrical engineer he used to come into my lab and use my equipment either for ways they were not intended to or would play around with my instrumentation and screw up the settings or break them. For example I came into work one day and went to my lab and opened my drying oven where I was drying samples that I was prepping for atomic absorption analysis. Meaning I was maintaining a clean room environment. When I opened the oven door to the oven i discovered that he had placed a piece of electrical equipment that had gotten wet to dry it off. Not understanding trace metal analysis he didn’t understand that he had ruined my sample by cross contamination and that I had to toss the samples out, clean the oven and start over again with new samples. That cost me two days in which I couldn’t perform trace metal analysis for QC and regulatory compliance and he couldn’t understand why I was having a hissy fit about it. Having said that he was brilliant at process control and I couldn’t have accomplished what I did in product development without his ability to control our processes.

He was a prankster too. After I had worked with him for several years I took a sabbatical to work on my Masters in materials science at OSU. When I completed my studies I came back to work at our new plant my company had built while I had gone back to school so none of the workers knew who I was or what I was there for. So some of the production workers asked who the new guy was. He told them “Haven’t you heard about Bill Clinton’s new law? For every 20 people you hire you now have to hire one gay person.”. Well they believed him and I had to spend the next year convincing my co-workers I wasn’t gay. I still remember Ben fondly as we went through a lot of adversity together and he was one of the smartest persons I’ve ever worked with and he did have a lot of respect for my abilities in experimentation in being able to do multivariant experiments and analysis in the lab.

My point being I have a lot of respect for electrical engineers as it’s arguably the most difficult field of engineering to learn.

Though to show some humility even though I did graduate studies in Materials Science/Engineering I have never considered myself an engineer as my studies were more focused on solid state physics than in engineering. Also it’s because my real world work has been in hazardous materials management.

I do have a question for you. When I was studying materials science at OSU I noticed all the different engineering departments had derogatory names for the different engineering fields. For example the called material science students “Dirt Burners” and chemical engineers “Glorified Plumbers” but I forgot what they called electrical engineers. Would you happen to know? LOL

 

[Yakuda]

So while some universities have eliminated tuition for those with few resources, students from the bottom 20 percent of the nation’s income distribution still make up only about 5 percent of the student bodies at selective institutions. This hasn’t changed much in 100 years.

Elite education has lost the trust of many Americans, in no small part because of how it solidifies the advantages of wealth. The fact that many schools still give preferential treatment to children of their alumni just adds insult to injury.

Opinion | How Higher Education Can Win America Back

Jefferson believed in the egalitarian potential of education, and we should, too.

www.nytimes.com

Higher education... creating morons for decades

 

[Diogenes]

No…learned experience from the school of hard knocks.

"Muh truth", eh?

 

[Kurmugeon]

You never attended a university. You have no idea what takes place there.

Yes I did! I was 90 credit hours out of 120 from a degree in electrical engineering, with a minor in Physics.

I was working full time as a defense contractor, making advanced, precision munitions, while going to college 1/2 time, and raising two 1/2 Hispanic daughters...

When the 1st gulf war broke out. All of my best friends were going into harms way, and only I knew the tricks to winning the air-war over Bagdad with minimal casualties. I could not let my friends die.

And I had just made the transition to full time college, and only working 3/4 time, and past the coarse drop date, when I was asked to go out of my home state, to dangerous locations, into support of the war.

So I was far, away, and in harms way myself.

18 months later, when the dust settled, I tried to return to college, but all the courses which failed, were now dropping my GPA below the threshold.

There was a form you could fill out, to get a waiver of the low GPA, have that semester removed from your GPA and start over after the war. I was in a line of 30 people, all seeing the same Female-Minority Administrator to get the form signed. Everyone else talked to her for less than a minute, got a signature, and moved on with life, after the war.

When my turn came, she looked at me, looked at the form for about a second, and Said, "We are the premiere Hispanic University in the Southwest, and we don't need you!", and handed me back the form unsigned.

So, I never go the Degree. My Hispanic WIFE and Kids, and now Five Grand Kids, all vote against WOKE, ALWAYS.

I can tell you what is WRONG with our Universities, it is Identity Politics!

-

 

[Diogenes]

 

[T. A. Gardner]

So while some universities have eliminated tuition for those with few resources, students from the bottom 20 percent of the nation’s income distribution still make up only about 5 percent of the student bodies at selective institutions. This hasn’t changed much in 100 years.

Elite education has lost the trust of many Americans, in no small part because of how it solidifies the advantages of wealth. The fact that many schools still give preferential treatment to children of their alumni just adds insult to injury.

Opinion | How Higher Education Can Win America Back

Jefferson believed in the egalitarian potential of education, and we should, too.

www.nytimes.com

The reason elite education has lost the trust of many Americans is manifold:

The radicalization of many university campuses puts them at odds with the average American.
The often uselessness of what gets taught making many degrees of questionable value.
The cost of a degree is now not aligned with the value it brings in the employment world.

Those are just a few of many perspectives that have reduced universities perceived value.

As for the NYT's suggestion, they're idiots, as usual. Wealth generally means parents who are more intellectually engaged and better educated. That confers on their children an advantage in education that poorer, less well-educated families lack. I can agree with the alumni advantage being unfair, but from the university's perspective that buys them a higher likelihood of continued donations by those alumni. That is, it is advantageous in a business sense.

 

[Diogenes]

Let's face facts.

Many Americans are not prepared to be educated.

The oversaturation of post-secondary education in America can be attributed to several key factors:

1. Increased Accessibility and Enrollment:
   • Over the past few decades, there has been a significant increase in the number of colleges and universities, as well as community colleges. This expansion has made higher education more accessible, leading to higher enrollment rates.
   • Policies like open enrollment at community colleges and initiatives to increase college attendance have further contributed to this trend.
2. Societal Pressure and Expectations:
   • There's a widespread belief that a college degree is necessary for success, which has been pushed by societal, familial, and educational pressures. This has led to a surge in college attendance, even among individuals for whom college might not be the best fit.
3. Economic Factors:
   • During economic downturns, individuals often turn to education as a way to improve their job prospects or to delay entering a weak job market. This has led to cyclical increases in college enrollment, particularly during recessions.
   • The shift from manufacturing to a knowledge-based economy has also driven up the demand for higher education as jobs increasingly require or prefer candidates with college degrees.
4. Federal and State Funding:
   • Government policies, including financial aid programs like Pell Grants, student loans, and tax credits for education, have made college more financially viable for many, thus increasing enrollment. However, this has also led to an increase in student debt, which in turn questions the sustainability of such expansion.
5. Institutional Expansion and Marketing:
   • Colleges and universities have expanded programs, sometimes unnecessarily, to attract more students. This includes creating new degrees, online programs, and certifications, often driven by market demands or perceived trends rather than genuine workforce needs.
   • Aggressive marketing by institutions to secure enrollment numbers has also played a role.
6. Mismatch Between Education and Job Market:
   • There's often a disconnect between what students are studying and the actual demands of the job market, leading to an oversupply of graduates in certain fields and a lack in others. This mismatch contributes to the perception of oversaturation, where the number of graduates exceeds job opportunities in their field of study.
7. Credential Inflation:
   • Over time, employers have begun to require higher levels of education for positions that previously did not necessitate such credentials, inflating the perceived necessity of a degree for employment.
8. Stagnation in Non-College Job Opportunities:
   • The decline in well-paying jobs that do not require a college degree has pushed more people into higher education as a perceived pathway to better employment, even if the actual job market does not absorb all these graduates at the expected level.

These factors collectively contribute to an environment where post-secondary education might be seen as oversaturated, with implications for both current students and the broader economy. This situation calls for a reevaluation of how education is aligned with economic and societal needs.



@Grok

 

[Kurmugeon]

What about Illegal Immigrants getting all of the admissions, scholarships, and financial aid?

-

 

[Diogenes]

What about Illegal Immigrants getting all of the admissions, scholarships, and financial aid?

-

Hyperbolic much?

Illegal immigrants do not receive all of the admissions, scholarships, and financial aid in America.

Here's a detailed breakdown based on current policies and practices:

Admissions:

• Public Universities: Some states allow illegal immigrants to enroll in public colleges and universities. However, they typically do not qualify for federal financial aid programs, and their access to in-state tuition rates varies by state. Many Blue states have enacted "tuition equity" laws that allow illegal immigrants who have attended and graduated from high schools in the state to pay in-state tuition rates. However, this is not uniform across all states; some states explicitly bar illegal immigrants from these benefits.
• Private Institutions: Private colleges and universities have their own policies regarding the admission of illegal immigrants. Some private institutions offer scholarships and financial aid to illegal immigrants, but this is at the discretion of each institution.
• Federal Aid: illegal immigrants are not eligible for federal financial aid programs like Pell Grants or federal student loans. This includes those under Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) status, who are also barred from federal aid.
• State Aid: Some states offer state-funded scholarships or financial aid to illegal immigrants, often under specific conditions like completing high school in the state or meeting residency requirements. For instance, California, Illinois, and New York are among the states providing state financial aid to illegal immigrants. However, this varies widely, with some states offering no such aid or having prohibitive policies.

@Grok

 

[Kurmugeon]

Hyperbolic much?

Illegal immigrants do not receive all of the admissions, scholarships, and financial aid in America.

Here's a detailed breakdown based on current policies and practices:

Admissions:

• Public Universities: Some states allow illegal immigrants to enroll in public colleges and universities. However, they typically do not qualify for federal financial aid programs, and their access to in-state tuition rates varies by state. Many Blue states have enacted "tuition equity" laws that allow illegal immigrants who have attended and graduated from high schools in the state to pay in-state tuition rates. However, this is not uniform across all states; some states explicitly bar illegal immigrants from these benefits.
• Private Institutions: Private colleges and universities have their own policies regarding the admission of illegal immigrants. Some private institutions offer scholarships and financial aid to illegal immigrants, but this is at the discretion of each institution.
• Federal Aid: illegal immigrants are not eligible for federal financial aid programs like Pell Grants or federal student loans. This includes those under Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) status, who are also barred from federal aid.
• State Aid: Some states offer state-funded scholarships or financial aid to illegal immigrants, often under specific conditions like completing high school in the state or meeting residency requirements. For instance, California, Illinois, and New York are among the states providing state financial aid to illegal immigrants. However, this varies widely, with some states offering no such aid or having prohibitive policies.

@Grok

In the State of New Mexico, where Hispanics may be a "Designated Minority", they are actually a numerical majority, and they still get all the benefits and preferences for being a "Designated Minority".

I live in a suburb of Albuquerque. We have a native born population of 108K New Mexican, American Citizens. We have, between the Obama, Syrian, Muslim imports ( 8K) and the the Illegals (12K) or a total of 20K illegal immigrants.

One is six people in our small town are not working, living on the public dole, and getting all of the social serves, including the new jobs, college admission and scholarships.

If you are in a car accident, and you are bleeding, with glass embedded in your face, neck and hands, and you happen to have white skin, a new law, passed by the state legislature, requires the ER, to treat ALL illegal immigrants first, even if their "Emergency" is just a cactus thorn in their foot, ....

ALL Hispanics and other "Designated Minorities, who are actually a numerical majority, incluing illegals from Venezsula", must be treated first, before any White-Male can be seen. I had this happen! I left the ER after two hour bleeding in the waiting room, when to an Army Medic Friends house, who happens to be black, but soldiers don't care!, whose life I had save in the first gulf war, and he picked the glass out and gave the needed stitches.

It also happened to my teen nephew, when he was skateboarding and compound broke his arm!

Your arrogance is only exceeded by your ignorance! You Jackass!


-

 

[Diogenes]

In the State of New Mexico, where Hispanics may be a "Designated Minority", they are actually a numerical majority, and they still get all the benefits and preferences for being a "Designated Minority".

Illegal immigrants do not typically qualify for the full range of federal benefits due to restrictions set by the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act (PRWORA) and other laws.

Most federal public benefits, including welfare, SNAP (food stamps), and non-emergency Medicaid, are generally restricted to "qualified" immigrants, which does not include illegal immigrants.

However, there are exceptions for emergency medical services, certain children's programs, and disaster relief.

Some states, including New Mexico, have used state funds to provide benefits where federal law does not allow, but these are limited.

For instance, New Mexico has provided state-funded Medicaid for emergency care to illegal immigrants, but comprehensive health coverage is not available to them unless they fall under specific circumstances like pregnancy or being under 18.

New Mexico offers in-state tuition to illegal immigrants who have attended high school in the state for a certain period, under Senate Bill 582. This benefit extends to DACA recipients and illegal immigrants, allowing them access to state financial aid for public post-secondary institutions.

However, this is more about educational access than being a "preference" for being a minority; it's aimed at students who have spent significant time in the state's educational system.


@Grok