How I Became a Libertarian

AnyOldIron said:
In the US most Conservatives seek to restore or conserve the underlying libertarian values that seem inherent in the culture of the US.

This is the 'golden ager' thing I refer to with reference to Cons. The desire to return to some, often mythical, age.

Classical conservatives such Cato desired a return to the 'founding of the Roman Republic' and so do US cons, a return to the mythical era at the founding of the American Republic when every man was able to live independently from others, from his own sweat, without social assistance.

The suffering this caused is often airbrushed out, as is the reality of existing in a society when most modes of production are already owned.

In this way, Cons can be described as regressive idealists..
Click to expand...
The "golden ager" thing is the RR's idea that we return to the "moral values" of the past.

The conserving of current attitudes is different, but also Conservative.
 
The "golden ager" thing is the RR's idea that we return to the "moral values" of the past.

That's because the RR are conservative. It is a trait common amongst all conservatives, from British Tories, to Roman Conservatives to American traditional Conservatives to the Religious Right....
 
AnyOldIron said:
The "golden ager" thing is the RR's idea that we return to the "moral values" of the past.

That's because the RR are conservative. It is a trait common amongst all conservatives, from British Tories, to Roman Conservatives to American traditional Conservatives to the Religious Right....
Click to expand...
No, it isn't. I mentioned two different types of conservatives. You just choose to ignore that and plug right on as if you haven't ever even heard of the "status quo" type of conservatives. Those that seek to preserve a current cultural aspect, such as libertarianism, rather than seek to "return" to some fictional blessed past.
 
No, it isn't. I mentioned two different types of conservatives. You just choose to ignore that and plug right on as if you haven't ever even heard of the "status quo" type of conservatives. Those that seek to preserve a current cultural aspect, such as libertarianism, rather than seek to "return" to some fictional blessed past.

Libertarianism isn't a current cultural aspect, its principles has a long history in the US, particularly leading back to the early days of the nation, when independence, self reliance etc etc were paramount.

The Golden Age for Conservative Libers is just that, a return to the days of self reliance, independence etc, the days before reality kicked in and social reforms came about.
 
AnyOldIron said:
No, it isn't. I mentioned two different types of conservatives. You just choose to ignore that and plug right on as if you haven't ever even heard of the "status quo" type of conservatives. Those that seek to preserve a current cultural aspect, such as libertarianism, rather than seek to "return" to some fictional blessed past.

Libertarianism isn't a current cultural aspect, its principles has a long history in the US, particularly leading back to the early days of the nation, when independence, self reliance etc etc were paramount.

The Golden Age for Conservative Libers is just that, a return to the days of self reliance, independence etc, the days before reality kicked in and social reforms came about.
Click to expand...
LOL. It's principles have been around since the beginning but it isn't a cultural aspect? Come on. There is a strong thread of libertarianism still present in the culture today that some people wish to preserve. This assumption that they wish to return to some "golden age" is ridiculous. As I stated, there are two types those who wish to return to such, and those who wish to preserve current aspects of the culture.

Ignoring that some do not wish to return to some golden age of the past isn't getting your argument any further, it is simply being intellectually dishonest.
 
Is it a cultural aspect, yes... refering back to the origins of the Republic.

Libertarians can be placed into two catergories.

Those that believe in Libertarian principles because they percieve them as the correct solution to today's social problems... and...

Those that believe in libertarian principles because they believe they are fundamentally right, that they were there at the birth of the Republic and shouldn't be altered.

That is the difference between progressive and conservative.
 
AnyOldIron said:
Is it a cultural aspect, yes... refering back to the origins of the Republic.

Libertarians can be placed into two catergories.

Those that believe in Libertarian principles because they percieve them as the correct solution to today's social problems... and...

Those that believe in libertarian principles because they believe they are fundamentally right, that they were there at the birth of the Republic and shouldn't be altered.

That is the difference between progressive and conservative.
Click to expand...
And there is a third. The Conservative wishing to conserve that aspect of the current culture. There is a strong libertarian thread in the US even today. There is a reason we are not so left as our European allies, and it isn't because we are "so young" as a nation. It is that aspect of our culture that many would like to conserve. Ignoring this type of conservative so that you can pretend you are always right doesn't change that they exist.

Not everybody is looking to return to the past, many believe that taking the nation in a leftward direction will be bad in the long run for the nation. They are conservative, not to return to something in the past, or because they are Libertarian, they are conservative because they believe the alternative isn't all that great.

Then there are a mixture, like myself. I'd like to preserve that libertarian thread in our culture, but I would also like to progress libertarian values as well. The idea that we must have a law for every danged thing imaginable is simply untrue. I'd like not to see a "return" to that, because it has never been that way, I'd like to see it tried. Give people the responsibility over their own lives and let's see where it takes us. Instead of making a special law that allows this type of marriage while disallowing that kind, let's make a law against victimizing people with it, marrying under age for instance, and then allow people to find whatever they may otherwise. So forth...

The idea that all Conservatives can fit easily into, "They all want a return to a 'golden age' and all of them are 'golden agers' is simplification, and as I presented before, intellectually dishonest.
 
Those that wish to conserve current libertarian principles are still wanting to conserve the libertarian principles that existed during the founding.

Maybe 'return to' a golden age is the incorrect term to use.

Return to (if the principles aren't currently extant) or to conserve principles (if they are) that existed during a golden age is better....

I'm not saying it is impossible to combine the two, progressive and conservative, a person can believe that the principles are the correct solution for current problems AND that they should be preserved as reverence for 'what is meant to be'.... [/B]
 
AnyOldIron said:
Those that wish to conserve current libertarian principles are still wanting to conserve the libertarian principles that existed during the founding.

Maybe 'return to' a golden age is the incorrect term to use.

Return to (if the principles aren't currently extant) or to conserve principles (if they are) that existed during a golden age is better....

I'm not saying it is impossible to combine the two, progressive and conservative, a person can believe that the principles are the correct solution for current problems AND that they should be preserved as reverence for 'what is meant to be'.... [/B]
Click to expand...
Or, they might simply believe that it is worth it to conserve the current libertarian thread while expanding libertarianism into areas that have never held it. The idea that the whole of the founding was libertarian is flawed, there was strong Christian ideation also present in the culture. I don't seek a return to prayer in school, for instance, I seek to turn the nation in a direction that changes the views on how and why we make laws.
 
The idea that the whole of the founding was libertarian is flawed, there was strong Christian ideation also present in the culture.

Each conservative group makes a golden age to their own taste.

If you listen to religious American conservatives, the founding was religious in nature and they tend to ignore the non-religious elements. That is why I refer to the golden age as mythical.

The aspired-to age is airbrushed to remove the aspects of history that don't go along with the rhetorical story.

I've never really considered you a conservative anyway, from your debates, it appears that you favour Liber principles because you seem to believe that that is the correct solution to modern problems.... You appear are more progressive Liber, which is why I was surprised to see you refer to yourself as conservative...
 
AnyOldIron said:
The idea that the whole of the founding was libertarian is flawed, there was strong Christian ideation also present in the culture.

Each conservative group makes a golden age to their own taste.

If you listen to religious American conservatives, the founding was religious in nature and they tend to ignore the non-religious elements. That is why I refer to the golden age as mythical.

The aspired-to age is airbrushed to remove the aspects of history that don't go along with the rhetorical story.

I've never really considered you a conservative anyway, from your debates, it appears that you favour Liber principles because you seem to believe that that is the correct solution to modern problems.... You appear are more progressive Liber, which is why I was surprised to see you refer to yourself as conservative...
Click to expand...
Once again, the "golden age" thing is only one part of a group. Not every Conservative wants a return to a "golden age". Preserving current values is not the same as a "return to a golden age". You attempt to use this because it makes it easier to dismiss every conservative as a "golden ager" and in your mind relegate them all to the stone age of politics.

At least you do recognize that one can be both Conservative and Progressive in stances. However not every Conservative want to "return" to anything. Some simply believe that something is worth saving.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top