I think I know where I'm retiring, and it isn't Florida...

Rationalist

Rationalist

Hail Voltaire
- Highest life expectancy in the world (85 years)
- 300 days of sunshine
- Universal health care without an income tax (or any other direct tax)
- No crime to speak of
- No leftist political parties
- Basically no government

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-should-i-know-about-andorra.htm
http://www.escapeartist.com/e_Books/Andorra_Report/Andorra_Report.html
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Will you change your hacked up misrepresentation of Thomas Jefferson's words before you retire?
 
Andorra is currently ruled by a socialist party. It's undoubtedly more left-wing than dual far right parties we have in America.

Also, they get most of their revenue through tariffs. Since Andorra basically produces no goods itself that basically means you'll be paying a high consumption tax in return for that fancy welfare state.
 
Personally I'm leaning to the leftist states of Co or Ca.
In Cali the taxes are soo high I'd have to become a caregiver to compensate for the difference.
 
Topspin said:
Personally I'm leaning to the leftist states of Co or Ca.
In Cali the taxes are soo high I'd have to become a caregiver to compensate for the difference.
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You wouldn't be paying the income tax. But their sales tax is 8.25%, higher than my states already high sales tax (strangely, Mississippi actually has one of the higher tax rates in the nation).
 
Bfgrn said:
Will you change your hacked up misrepresentation of Thomas Jefferson's words before you retire?
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Care to elaborate?

My understanding of Jefferson is that he was an anti-federalist, which means he believed political power ought to be as decentralized as possible. He believed in a small, weak Federal government. He even believed our current Constitution vested too much power in the Federal government. It is also my understanding that even "big government" founders such as Alexander Hamilton wouldn't have endorsed anything close to the monolithic social welfare state of today's Republicans and Democrats.

But, apparently my representation of Jefferson's words as well as my understanding of his ideology is incorrect. Apparently, Jefferson spoke and wrote in such a way that only YOU are able to understand it properly. Thank God we have you to set us straight. With that said, please do enlighten me.
 
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Watermarx said:
Andorra is currently ruled by a socialist party. It's undoubtedly more left-wing than dual far right parties we have in America.
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So long as the government doesn't grow, I'm cool with that. As it stands, Andorra has fewer than 100 government employees.

Also, they get most of their revenue through tariffs. Since Andorra basically produces no goods itself that basically means you'll be paying a high consumption tax in return for that fancy welfare state.
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Andorra is treated as a EU member, which means free trade with other EU members. Not sure about the USA, China, etc. I'm guessing the EU's external tariffs would apply.
 
Voltaire said:
Care to elaborate?

My understanding of Jefferson is that he was an anti-federalist, which means he believed political power ought to be as decentralized as possible. He believed in a small, weak Federal government. He even believed our current Constitution vested too much power in the Federal government. It is also my understanding that even "big government" founders such as Alexander Hamilton wouldn't have endorsed anything close to the monolithic social welfare state of today's Republicans and Democrats.

But, apparently my representation of Jefferson's words as well as my understanding of his ideology is incorrect. Apparently, Jefferson spoke and wrote in such a way that only YOU are able to understand it properly. Thank God we have you to set us straight. With that said, please do enlighten me.
Click to expand...
:hand:
 
Voltaire said:
Care to elaborate?

My understanding of Jefferson is that he was an anti-federalist, which means he believed political power ought to be as decentralized as possible. He believed in a small, weak Federal government. He even believed our current Constitution vested too much power in the Federal government. It is also my understanding that even "big government" founders such as Alexander Hamilton wouldn't have endorsed anything close to the monolithic social welfare state of today's Republicans and Democrats.

But, apparently my representation of Jefferson's words as well as my understanding of his ideology is incorrect. Apparently, Jefferson spoke and wrote in such a way that only YOU are able to understand it properly. Thank God we have you to set us straight. With that said, please do enlighten me.
Click to expand...

I'd be more than happy to elaborate. Thomas Jefferson was a brilliant man. Possibly the most brilliant of our founders. The quote you or someone you copy & pasted it from hacked Jefferson's words to promote THEIR agenda and priorities OVER those of Mr Jefferson. The words are from his First Inaugural, so an Inaugural is not extemporaneous or made in the heat of debate on the floor of Congress. Every word is measured, and every priority would be in proper order of importance.

Here is what Jefferson said with your “editing” in bold:

Still one thing more, fellow-citizens — a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave [men] them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities.

Can you surmise why 'shall restrain men from injuring one another' was ignored?
 
Bfgrn said:
I'd be more than happy to elaborate. Thomas Jefferson was a brilliant man. Possibly the most brilliant of our founders. The quote you or someone you copy & pasted it from hacked Jefferson's words to promote THEIR agenda and priorities OVER those of Mr Jefferson. The words are from his First Inaugural, so an Inaugural is not extemporaneous or made in the heat of debate on the floor of Congress. Every word is measured, and every priority would be in proper order of importance.

Here is what Jefferson said with your “editing” in bold:

Still one thing more, fellow-citizens — a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave [men] them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities.

Can you surmise why 'shall restrain men from injuring one another' was ignored?
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Obviously, restraining men from injuring one another is among the chief duties of government. If Libertarianism can be narrowed down to two concise principles, it is the following: 1) do all that you have agreed to do (the foundation of contract law), and 2) do not encroach upon others or their property. Accordingly, I'd have no objection to correcting the quote in my signature. I was simply unaware that it had been modified.

I sense that your trivial objection doesn't have anything to do with the quote itself, however. Perhaps you are under the illusion that Jefferson's words imply some sort of approval of a nanny state that dictates every aspect of our lives. If that is the case, you are terribly mistaken. Jefferson strongly supported the right to bear arms and believed in a small, limited government that stayed out of personal affairs.
 
Voltaire said:
Obviously, restraining men from injuring one another is among the chief duties of government. If Libertarianism can be narrowed down to two concise principles, it is the following: 1) do all that you have agreed to do (the foundation of contract law), and 2) do not encroach upon others or their property. Accordingly, I'd have no objection to correcting the quote in my signature. I was simply unaware that it had been modified.

I sense that your trivial objection doesn't have anything to do with the quote itself, however. Perhaps you are under the illusion that Jefferson's words imply some sort of approval of a nanny state that dictates every aspect of our lives. If that is the case, you are terribly mistaken. Jefferson strongly supported the right to bear arms and believed in a small, limited government that stayed out of personal affairs.
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Let's get something clear. Thomas Jefferson was one of OUR founding fathers, not just yours or not just mine. None of us can claim that domain. But you sure come on strong for a person who posted a hacked up Jefferson quote. I don't think 'restraining men from injuring one another' is 'obvious' to many people with priorities that match whoever hacked up Jefferson's words. Many of those people call themselves 'libertarian'. Thomas Jefferson was not one of them. 'Restrain' is an active verb. It suggests government has a role of preventing in advance those injuries occurring. And 'injure' even in Jefferson's day include the "injured party", not merely physical harm, but also in a legal and civil sense as well.

But, you're right about one thing, I have 'objections'. But you don't get to decide what is or isn't trivial. Your forfeited that when you or the person you copied and pasted from hacked up Jefferson's words to promote different priorities than Thomas Jefferson's. As a matter of FACT, you left out Jefferson's first and most important priority.

If you want to know Thomas Jefferson's priorities, why don't you read his First Inaugural address It is obvious you never have, or you wouldn't have posted a hacked up part of that speech. Maybe that would be too 'trivial' for someone who already knows what Thomas Jefferson did or didn't believe or how he would or wouldn't assess America today.

Jefferson also said: "I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29
 
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Bfgrn said:
I'd be more than happy to elaborate. Thomas Jefferson was a brilliant man. Possibly the most brilliant of our founders. The quote you or someone you copy & pasted it from hacked Jefferson's words to promote THEIR agenda and priorities OVER those of Mr Jefferson. The words are from his First Inaugural, so an Inaugural is not extemporaneous or made in the heat of debate on the floor of Congress. Every word is measured, and every priority would be in proper order of importance.

Here is what Jefferson said with your “editing” in bold:

Still one thing more, fellow-citizens — a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave [men] them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities.

Can you surmise why 'shall restrain men from injuring one another' was ignored?
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In the context of the quote it actually seems obvious Jefferson had in view the creation of a lawful society. In other words it is a right and proper role for government to legislate in order to restrain physical and civil harm a man might cause another.

What am I missing here?
 
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