IDIOT STATEMENT: If you dont want to make it illegal, you support and condone it!

Dixie I'm not sure you are seeing the value in taking an incremental approach.

If I recall correctly you oppose abortion except in cases of life preservation, rape or incest.

I on the other hand oppose lethal abortion in all cases except life preservation.

Now if you were a politician and proposed an abortion law along the lines of your beliefs. Would it not be wise for me to support your law if it eliminated 95% of abortions. Or should I abstain or vote against the law to hold out for a law which support my view totally.
 
And once again, it is a step, not the goal... It is important to actually do SOMETHING rather than nothing because you can't have what you want now. That is the position of a three year old.

Damo, I am trying to get a reprehensible and hideous practice to stop. My objective is to eliminate the procedure completely, that is what "ban" means. To suggest I allow the practice to continue under the guise of re-defined semantics, is not relevant to my objective in any way. I see no purpose in this, and frankly, see no argument from your perspective.

If you want to ban smoking in public, you ban smoking in public, period! You don't pass some watered-down compromise that allows smoking in public for reasons that aren't relevant, and don't really exist, and that people can subjectively interpret to skirt the ban. That is just stupid and ignorant on a number of levels. It completely defeats the purpose of banning it!

We didn't pass a law that said, you can't murder someone in cold blood... unless you find some justification to do it. That would just be stupid to do, wouldn't it? What would be the point? Sure, you would eliminate all cold blooded murders where people would not have any perceived justification for their action... but what have you really accomplished there? Why would you ignorantly make such a stupid compromise? Just to "get along" with the cold blooded murderer's? I don't get it!

Go read about partial birth, go find where it has EVER been performed to save the life of the mother! It is a procedure that takes DAYS to perform, and is NEVER done out of medical necessity! NEVER! NEVER EVER! This isn't "Dixies Opinion" this is the FACT! You just don't want to accept it, and I'm sure you have your foolish reasons, but you can't make me understand why you would ever support such a thing. IT has nothing to do with politics for me, it has to do with stopping doctors from partially birthing an infant, and ramming a pair of scissors into its skull and killing it, where it does feel pain, and it is not necessary for ANY reason! This is an inhumane act that flies in the face of modern medicine and what it is supposed to stand for! There is no argument here with regard to health and life of the mother, NONE! It doesn't exist! I've shown you the testimony from experts in the field, and you've simply ignored them and held to some stupid idiotic belief that this is about right-wing-religious-fanatic-conservative views, when that is simply NOT the case! You've apparently gulped the liberal kool aid on this one, and just refuse to accept reason and logic.

Again, if we were discussing a ban on ALL abortions, I would agree with the argument, there does need to be some provision in the law to protect a woman's health and life, in those cases. This is not about that! There are any number of other ways to terminate a pregnancy, and ALL of them are less risky to a woman's health and life, than partial birth abortion! There is no reason to perform a partial birth abortion, except convenience. It is done at the expense of a partially born human being, and that is just unacceptable in a civilized society, I am sorry. No, I can't support some weak-ass watered down law that would be meaningless and ineffective in BANNING this hideous practice, I can't do that! I can't look at myself in the mirror and justify ANY rational reason to accept the 'red herring' position, and I won't budge on that! If you can find it in your conscience to do so, more power to ya!
Your attempt to get it to stop by not passing any laws and proceeding to complain about the outrage of the practice has failed. Now how about actually passing some laws?

Attempting to do the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different result there, Dix.

I am unconvinced that promoting outrage is doing anything about stopping those abortions, while the law would have done something and we could have worked towards the rest....

So, instead we hold nothing. Good PLAN! THANKS Republicans for sticking to your guns and keeping this practice legal in ALL cases rather than only in those where the few doctors who might pretend to find a case of "life in jeopardy" do it. Great job. Pat yourself on your back there because you have done absolutely nothing because of your insistence that this cannot be there, that somehow a "worthless" caveat suddenly becomes all powerful in prognostication...

wonderful fricking job.
 
I support Dixie's right to a be a complete friggin moron on this subject... but I don't condone such idiotic behavior.

Super, shut up! Just shut the hell up! You are starting to sound just like AssHat, Prissy, and Jarhead! You couldn't make your point, and even the evidence YOU presented, was shown to refute your point. Now, you just want to keep lying and manipulating the conversation, and insisting you "won" the debate. You didn't "win" a damn thing, you never made a valid point, you refused to admit you were wrong, have yet to apologize like you said you would, and you have resorted to tossing out your little insulting ad hom's at me. You can go fuck yourself as far as I'm concerned, I've lost all respect for you here.
 
Your attempt to get it to stop by not passing any laws and proceeding to complain about the outrage of the practice has failed. Now how about actually passing some laws?

Attempting to do the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different result there, Dix.

I am unconvinced that promoting outrage is doing anything about stopping those abortions, while the law would have done something and we could have worked towards the rest....

So, instead we hold nothing. Good PLAN! THANKS Republicans for sticking to your guns and keeping this practice legal in ALL cases rather than only in those where the few doctors who might pretend to find a case of "life in jeopardy" do it. Great job. Pat yourself on your back there because you have done absolutely nothing because of your insistence that this cannot be there, that somehow a "worthless" caveat suddenly becomes all powerful in prognostication...

wonderful fricking job.

Uhmm.. I hate to break this to ya, but the law WAS passed, and signed by President Bush...without the health/life provision. It is currently tied up in the courts.
 
On another note the struggle between pro-life vs pro-choice is not politically prescient.

For example look a group like NARAL. Does NARAL give good ratings to politicians that vote for laws pertaining to the right to choose? No they do not a positive rating from NARAL. Has to do with government funding of abortion. There aren't bills in Congress to ban abortion or allow choice. There are bills to promote abortion financially or not.

At this point we have to at least try to fight against the government direct sponsorship of it.

There are no pro-choie vs. pro-life fights anymore. Its a fight of pro-government funded abortion vs. anti-government funded abortion.
 
Dixie I'm not sure you are seeing the value in taking an incremental approach.

If I recall correctly you oppose abortion except in cases of life preservation, rape or incest.

I on the other hand oppose lethal abortion in all cases except life preservation.

Now if you were a politician and proposed an abortion law along the lines of your beliefs. Would it not be wise for me to support your law if it eliminated 95% of abortions. Or should I abstain or vote against the law to hold out for a law which support my view totally.


I see no value in an incremental approach to banning a procedure that is not medically necessary, and involves the heinous infanticide of a partially born baby. I see no value in accepting some false premise that it would ever be required for the health or life of the mother, especially when so many well-respected doctors have completely refuted this argument, and made a valid case for why it's actually MORE dangerous to the health and life of the mother to perform such a procedure!
 
The idea that so many people would simply march in step with any recommendation is simply an assumption of the "bad" in others.

And let me explain something else to you, Damo... There is not some committee that would approve the doctor's recommendations, it doesn't exist! "So many people" would not even be aware of what a patient and doctor decided in the confidence and privacy of the doctor's office! It would be a major uphill battle to take a doctor to court and try to prove that he misdiagnosed 'mental health issues' in his own patient! First of all, there is no one who is going to be out there calling it to question or making the legal case, because they are not a party to the action, and have no legal basis to challenge the doctor. Secondly, even if they did, the doctor retains professional status over any other opinions here, it is HIS patient, HE made the diagnosis based on HIS examination, and even another doctor, can't refute his findings, because that doctor had no relationship with the patient. Thirdly, even in the bizarre event that such a case should occur and make it to trial, and even in the unprecedented case the court allowed an outside opinion from another physician, the doctor in question made a medical decision regarding his patient that he is allowed to make as a doctor, and since the bill had that provision, he would escape any possible finding of guilt in the end because of it.

Dixie, you have lost your mind and are a product of mind control...

YOU actually believe that Doctors would specifically ignore this law and continue to just rub their hands together saying, "goodie, goodie, goodie...I can still ignore this law and KILL, KILL KILL!!!!!"

YOU are one SICK mother ________er!

GET A GRIP ON REALITY.
 
I see no value in an incremental approach to banning a procedure that is not medically necessary, and involves the heinous infanticide of a partially born baby. I see no value in accepting some false premise that it would ever be required for the health or life of the mother, especially when so many well-respected doctors have completely refuted this argument, and made a valid case for why it's actually MORE dangerous to the health and life of the mother to perform such a procedure!

Then you are NOTHING but a phony hypocrite...you don't give two shits about the unborn child as you have claimed... you don't care about saving lives...

you and your ILK make me want to vomit.... boy was I fooled... giving you the benefit of the doubt on your hypocrisy...

you do no justice to those that truely do believe in the cause of reducing abortions.

sickening! Damo pegged you quite well... this is only about politics and winning....shame on you!
 
"Super, shut up! Just shut the hell up! You are starting to sound just like AssHat, Prissy, and Jarhead!"

Boohoo... dixie gunna cry???

"You couldn't make your point, and even the evidence YOU presented, was shown to refute your point."

You mean the AMA and Aultmans direct quotes where BOTH address the need for a provision to for when the womans life is in danger? Yeah, that TOTALLY refuted my point. You are the one that is ignoring the actual quotes from them and refuse to understand that by putting this provision in, you get the law passed. As Damo has tried to point out to you, THEN you can yell and scream and throw fits about how it is NEVER NEVER EVER needed. Which is not the point, because neither you, nor any doctor can say with 100% certainty that it never WILL be needed. It is completely arrogant to assume that you or they have thought up every possible scenario.

"Now, you just want to keep lying and manipulating the conversation, and insisting you "won" the debate. You didn't "win" a damn thing, you never made a valid point, you refused to admit you were wrong, have yet to apologize like you said you would, and you have resorted to tossing out your little insulting ad hom's at me."

wow. dixie really is gunna cry.

"You can go fuck yourself as far as I'm concerned, I've lost all respect for you here."

Oh SHIT. My life is over. I have lost DIXIE's respect. Whatever will I do?

You really are ignorant and close minded. You would rather ALL partial birth abortions be legal than eliminate the vast majority and then continue to fight against the rare situations where the doctor may try to "manipulate" the law.

Others have pointed this out to you, but all you can do is cry NEVER EVER NEVER ... blah blah blah. You are an idiot and thus, your "respect" is neither wanted nor is it worth a bag of shit.
 
"I see no value in an incremental approach to banning a procedure that is not medically necessary, and involves the heinous infanticide of a partially born baby."

Which is EXACTLY your problem. You see no value in passing a law that would prevent doctors from performing this abomination of a procedure if it were legal, but would not do so if it was illegal. Because to you, they will all just violate or circumvent the law.... which is bullshit. While some may indeed do so, the majority would not.

"I see no value in accepting some false premise that it would ever be required for the health or life of the mother, especially when so many well-respected doctors have completely refuted this argument, and made a valid case for why it's actually MORE dangerous to the health and life of the mother to perform such a procedure!"

Yet the AMA clearly leaves room for a doctor to make the judgement just in case they are wrong or in case a situation arises that they simply haven't thought of yet. They allow for the fact that they are human and that humans have made mistakes in the past... even when they are 100% certain at the time that they are right. You on the other hand, think that the current opinion is perfect and that there is no chance of a potential situation coming up in the future because you or they have thought of every single potential scenario.

You are a fool.
 
Why not just include the exception and prosecute a doctor who does it when the exception does not apply. I also don't know of any circumstance it is necessary so it wouldn't be difficult to punish a doctor who doesn't do it to protect the life/health of the mother.
 
The first question we should ask before considering all the what ifs is will it save lives?

I think the planned legilation including the health exception would have saved lives. By that alone I think it should have been supported. It it didn't we could go back and fix it later. One thing is for sure it wouldn't have cost more lives.
 
Hate, Super and Damo, I have a new found respect for you and your ability to call a spade a spade and to support a side you usually would not agree with.

I will try to learn a lesson from you and look at things with a more impartial light in the future.
 
YOU actually believe that Doctors would specifically ignore this law and continue to just rub their hands together saying, "goodie, goodie, goodie...I can still ignore this law and KILL, KILL KILL!!!!!"

I think that abortion doctors who already perform this procedure, would not be deterred one bit. They would simply diagnose their patient with 'mental health' issues, and continue to do as they always have. I see no reason why they wouldn't, if that were given to them as the only option here.
 
The first question we should ask before considering all the what ifs is will it save lives?

I think the planned legilation including the health exception would have saved lives. By that alone I think it should have been supported. It it didn't we could go back and fix it later. One thing is for sure it wouldn't have cost more lives.

that's how i see it, but that's not how supposed pro-life Republicans in power saw it.... they viewed it the same way as Dixie... sadly the political win was more important than this barbaric, imo procedure....
 
Why not just include the exception and prosecute a doctor who does it when the exception does not apply. I also don't know of any circumstance it is necessary so it wouldn't be difficult to punish a doctor who doesn't do it to protect the life/health of the mother.


I've already addressed this... WHO is going to do this? What legal basis would there be for a third party to bring such litigation? How would a court rule on a matter of her doctor's word vs. some arbitrary doctor 'expert'? These are real questions you have to ask and consider, and as I see it, there is no answer, and if you find one, it won't work. The doctor/patient relationship carries great weight here, and no outside entity would have the legal right to dictate that, so the case could never be made.

When you stipulated that the procedure is allowable for "health" reasons, you have given the doctors an 'out', a tenable excuse. Yes, there is no reason for it to be necessary to protect the physical health or life of a woman, but 'mental health' is vague, and the law has established that it is indeed "health" and can be considered as such, so there is your problem.

It's merely a loophole that doesn't need to be there, has no basis in medical necessity to be there, and shouldn't be considered as part of the legislation, and wasn't. Rightly so! It's just kinda stupid to ban something, then turn around and make a vague exception to it, what is the point of banning it?
 
I've already addressed this... WHO is going to do this? What legal basis would there be for a third party to bring such litigation? How would a court rule on a matter of her doctor's word vs. some arbitrary doctor 'expert'? These are real questions you have to ask and consider, and as I see it, there is no answer, and if you find one, it won't work. The doctor/patient relationship carries great weight here, and no outside entity would have the legal right to dictate that, so the case could never be made.

When you stipulated that the procedure is allowable for "health" reasons, you have given the doctors an 'out', a tenable excuse. Yes, there is no reason for it to be necessary to protect the physical health or life of a woman, but 'mental health' is vague, and the law has established that it is indeed "health" and can be considered as such, so there is your problem.

It's merely a loophole that doesn't need to be there, has no basis in medical necessity to be there, and shouldn't be considered as part of the legislation, and wasn't. Rightly so! It's just kinda stupid to ban something, then turn around and make a vague exception to it, what is the point of banning it?


The Local law enforcement agencies.
THe Federal law enforecement agencies.
 
You mean the AMA and Aultmans direct quotes where BOTH address the need for a provision to for when the womans life is in danger?

Super, you are an idiot if you interpreted that from her statement. She did not EVER state that such a provision was needed, in fact, she stated the exact polar frickin opposite in plain unmistakable English, and couldn't have made it any clearer. Now, I can't get Dr. Aultman to come here and post, and short of me doing that, there is no way your stubborn ass is going to comprehend anything else. She didn't say what you claim, neither did the AMA, both of them are on record opposing the procedure and stating that it is never a medical necessity for saving the life or preserving the health of the mother. And in addition, they both stated quite the contrary, that such a procedure posed a substantially GREATER risk to the woman's health and life!

Now, you can keep being an idiot pinhead and just repudiating the facts here, or you can accept what was stated as fact and admit you were wrong about it, I really don't give a shit!
 
The Local law enforcement agencies.
THe Federal law enforecement agencies.


Nope, sorry. Law enforcement is not who brings legal cases before the court in these matters. They don't monitor the diagnosis of doctors or what doctors and patients decide. They have no basis in which to question the doctor's decisions regarding his patients mental health, and they don't do that... EVER! The case would have to be brought by a third party, and any third party would have to prove that the doctor acted in violation of the law, which would be almost impossible to prove. Keep in mind, the exemption would give the doctor the upper hand, he has the law on his side... he made the medical determination that it was in the interest of his patients mental health, and other than the patient themselves or the infant, there is no one who can question his authority, because the law would be quite clear, it's his discretion.
 
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