If God were real, you wouldn’t need a book

[ZenMode]

The Air India crash with a single survivor or, years ago, the Japan Air crash also with four survivors and 520 dead, are considered by some to be "miracles". Trump not getting his head blown off in Butler, PA while another man did get his head blown off is claimed to be a miracle....at least for Trump.

IMO, all the events are within the realm of probability, not magic AKA miracles AKA supernatural phenomenon.

The Trinity thing is a part of modern Christianity, but IIRC, wasn't formulated until 300 years after the Crucifixion. Like myself, many Americans believe the Bible is "inspired" by God. I'd add the same to other ancient religious texts from around the world. Wisdom is wisdom regardless of the source. It's separating out the dogma that's the problem.

Japan Air Lines Flight 123 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The aircraft, featuring a high-density seating configuration, was carrying 524 people. The crash killed all 15 crew members and 505 of the 509 passengers on board, leaving only four survivors. An estimated 20 to 50 passengers survived the initial crash, but died from their injuries while awaiting rescue. The crash is the deadliest single-aircraft accident in aviation history[1] and remains the deadliest aviation incident in Japan

Fewer in U.S. Now See Bible as Literal Word of God

Coinciding with a general decline in religiosity in the U.S., a record-low 20% of Americans now say they believe the Bible is literally true.

news.gallup.com

A record-low 20% of Americans now say the Bible is the literal word of God, down from 24% the last time the question was asked in 2017, and half of what it was at its high points in 1980 and 1984. Meanwhile, a new high of 29% say the Bible is a collection of "fables, legends, history and moral precepts recorded by man." This marks the first time significantly more Americans have viewed the Bible as not divinely inspired than as the literal word of God. The largest percentage, 49%, choose the middle alternative, roughly in line with where it has been in previous years.

"A record-low 20% of Americans now say the Bible is the literal word of God, "

Anyone who believes the Bible was literally written by an all-knowing being, needs to seek help....or has never actually read it.

 

[ZenMode]

A very reasonable belief, since the Bible is not a modern scientific treatise nor modern historical research paper. It's chock full of poetry, allegory, hyperbole, symbolism.

afaik, the only people who insist on strict biblical literalism are fundamentalist congregations, and militant atheists.

I sure am glad that the all-knowing creator of the universe wrote such a book rather than one that would actually be useful to mankind.

 

[domer76]

"A record-low 20% of Americans now say the Bible is the literal word of God, "

Anyone who believes the Bible was literally written by an all-knowing being, needs to seek help....or has never actually read it.

Perhaps they read it, but reading is not necessarily comprehending.

Many an atheist who deconverted said they did so after the began to actually STUDY the Bible.

 

[ZenMode]

Perhaps they read it, but reading is not necessarily comprehending.

Many an atheist who deconverted said they did so after the began to actually STUDY the Bible.

And apparently lowered their standards for what qualifies as the writings of the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of everything, who exists outside of space and time and is surprised by nothing.

 

[Cypress]

I sure am glad that the all-knowing creator of the universe wrote such a book rather than one that would actually be useful to mankind.

Explain what or who lead you to believe God wrote the Bible.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

"A record-low 20% of Americans now say the Bible is the literal word of God, "

Anyone who believes the Bible was literally written by an all-knowing being, needs to seek help....or has never actually read it.

There are devout believers. IMO, most are on the low end of the education spectrum.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The church had a sensible criteria for what books to include in the New Testament. It had be written by an eyewitness, or someone who knew the eyewitnesses; it had to have attained a level of credibility by being widely used across the Mediterranean world; and they had to be internally consistent in terms of theology and doctrine.

While it wasn't a perfect system, it did a reasonably good job of keeping out most forgeries, and keeping our the apocrypha which were not written until the second or third centuries.

....or books were chosen that supported the desired direction of the new religion.

One example is the exclusion of the importance of women in this new religion dominated by men. As the Gospels point out, both Marys were at the Crucifixion and at the tomb for the resurrection yet they are treated like secondary figures. Mary Magdelene can easily be seen as the most important Apostle, yet Pope Gregory the Great turned her into a whore.

Who framed Mary Magdalene?

Mary Magdalene is a model of a faithful, devoted follower of the Lord, as well as a strong, independent leader in the early church.

uscatholic.org

Who framed Mary Magdalene?
The first witness to Christ’s Resurrection was made into a prostitute. Women today are restoring her reputation.

Although the decline of Mary of Magdala’s reputation as apostle and leader most likely began shortly after her death, the transformation to penitent prostitute was sealed on Sept. 14, 591, when Pope Gregory the Great gave a homily in Rome that pronounced that Mary Magdalene, Luke’s unnamed sinner, and Mary of Bethany were, indeed, the same person.

“She whom Luke calls the sinful woman, whom John calls Mary, we believe to be the Mary from whom seven devils were ejected according to Mark,” Gregory said in his 23rd homily. “And what did these seven devils signify, if not all the vices? . . . It is clear, brothers, that the woman previously used the unguent to perfume her flesh in forbidden acts . . .”

 

[Cypress]

....or books were chosen that supported the desired direction of the new religion.

One example is the exclusion of the importance of women in this new religion dominated by men. As the Gospels point out, both Marys were at the Crucifixion and at the tomb for the resurrection yet they are treated like secondary figures. Mary Magdelene can easily be seen as the most important Apostle, yet Pope Gregory the Great turned her into a whore.

Who framed Mary Magdalene?

Mary Magdalene is a model of a faithful, devoted follower of the Lord, as well as a strong, independent leader in the early church.

uscatholic.org

Who framed Mary Magdalene?
The first witness to Christ’s Resurrection was made into a prostitute. Women today are restoring her reputation.

Although the decline of Mary of Magdala’s reputation as apostle and leader most likely began shortly after her death, the transformation to penitent prostitute was sealed on Sept. 14, 591, when Pope Gregory the Great gave a homily in Rome that pronounced that Mary Magdalene, Luke’s unnamed sinner, and Mary of Bethany were, indeed, the same person.

“She whom Luke calls the sinful woman, whom John calls Mary, we believe to be the Mary from whom seven devils were ejected according to Mark,” Gregory said in his 23rd homily. “And what did these seven devils signify, if not all the vices? . . . It is clear, brothers, that the woman previously used the unguent to perfume her flesh in forbidden acts . . .”

You're right, women did play important roles in Jesus' and Paul's ministries.

The core essence of Christian doctrine was established early on, by the middle of the first century; i.e., the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus in the canonical gospels and in Corinthians, and essential Christian theology, practice, and ethics in the authentic Pauline epistles.

All the Gnostic stuff and the apocryphal gospels from the second and third centuries were written well after the apostles and people who knew them were dead.

I think the early Church was particularly interested in a canon that had apostolic authority, aka written by apostles or by witnesses who knew them.

 

[Margot]

Explain what or who lead you to believe God wrote the Bible.

Who do you thing wrote the Bible?

 

[Margot]

You're right, women did play important roles in Jesus' and Paul's ministries.

The core essence of Christian doctrine was established early on, by the middle of the first century; the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus in the canonical gospels and in Corinthians, and essential Christian theology, practice, and ethics in the authentic Pauline epistles.

All the Gnostic stuff and the apocryphal gospels from the second and third centuries were written well after the apostles and people who knew them were dead.

I think the early Church was particularly interested in a canon that had apostolic authority, aka written by apostles or by witnesses who knew them.

Paul claimed women can't lead a Church! Jesus never said that!
Do you agree with Paul that women are second class Christians!?

 

[Cypress]

Who do you thing wrote the Bible?​

Paul is writing his letters in the first person. It's not God writing.

Luke opens his gospel specifically saying he wrote it and it's based on his investigations. There is no way to read it and conclude God wrote it.

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.​

 

[Cypress]

Paul claimed women can't lead a Church! Jesus never said that!
Do you agree with Paul that women are second class Christians!?

That statement is widely thought to be a later insertion by a Christian scribe.

Throughout his epistles, Paul refers to women who work with him and hold important positions in his ministry - deacons, teachers, and ambassadors.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You're right, women did play important roles in Jesus' and Paul's ministries.

The core essence of Christian doctrine was established early on, by the middle of the first century; i.e., the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus in the canonical gospels and in Corinthians, and essential Christian theology, practice, and ethics in the authentic Pauline epistles.

All the Gnostic stuff and the apocryphal gospels from the second and third centuries were written well after the apostles and people who knew them were dead.

I think the early Church was particularly interested in a canon that had apostolic authority, aka written by apostles or by witnesses who knew them.

I'm not up on all the early history of Christianity, but it does appear that early church leaders pushed the new religion in a particular direction including the exclusion or lessening the importance of women. Something I doubt Jesus would approve of happening.

 

[Cypress]

I'm not up on all the early history of Christianity, but it does appear that early church leaders pushed the new religion in a particular direction including the exclusion or lessening the importance of women. Something I doubt Jesus would approve of happening.

You're right about the sexism that manifested in the Church, though sexism was rampant in Jewish, Roman, and Greek society as well. I don't think there was a single culture in the Mediterranean which wasn't sexist.

But it makes sense that the early Church wanted a canon that had apostolic authority. Everyone basically knew the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Phillip, the Acts of Andrew were apocryphal works not actually written by those disciples.

 

[Margot]

Paul is writing his letters in the first person. It's not God writing.

Luke opens his gospel specifically saying he wrote it and it's based on his investigations. There is no way to read it and conclude God wrote it.

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.​

So Paul's words are his own not from the Holy Spirit! And that applies to all writers of Scripture?

 

[Margot]

That statement is widely thought to be a later insertion by a Christian scribe.

Throughout his epistles, Paul refers to women who work with him and hold important positions in his ministry - deacons, teachers, and ambassadors.

Book of Timothy, Paul claims women can't lead a Church

 

[Cypress]

So Paul's words are his own not from the Holy Spirit! And that applies to all writers of Scripture?

Humans being inspired by the Holy spirit is not the claim that was made.

The claim made by Zenmode was that God wrote it.

 

[Cypress]

Book of Timothy, Paul claims women can't lead a Church

Timothy is widely not considered to be authentic Pauline letter. It was written by someone else in Paul's name.

In the letters that are universally acknowledged to be authentically written by Paul, women play important roles in his ministry and churches.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You're right about the sexism that manifested in the Church, though sexism was rampant in Jewish, Roman, and Greek society as well. I don't think there was a single culture in the Mediterranean which wasn't sexist.

But it makes sense that the early Church wanted a canon that had apostolic authority. Everyone basically knew the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Phillip, the Acts of Andrew were apocryphal works not actually written by those disciples.

No doubt it was partly a reflection of the times, but let's be honest, it's not exactly in line with the teachings of Jesus to demean or downgrade women.

It appears two of the four gospels were not written by those disciples either. The bottom line for me is that the four gospels are the core of Christianity. The rest of the New Testament was written years later. Paul was a johnny-come-lately with a anti-sex fetish.

Who Really Wrote the Gospels?

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are not just code words for anonymous and unreliable authors of the Gospels. They were real people, divinely inspired.

www.catholic.com

 

[Margot]

Humans being inspired by the Holy spirit is not the claim that was made.

The claim made by Zenmode was that God wrote it.

You should ask him how God wrote it!