If you vote on principles and conviction, you can't vote for Obama

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

As I said pick a country. Be specific. Narrow it down. As can be seen here http://www.huffingtonpost.com/neta-crawford/drones-civilian-casualties_b_1907597.html it talks about drone attacks in Yemen. It is better to take out terrorists with drones than have troops there if for no other reason fewer US troops die. Surely that's easy enough to understand.

Terrorists? How can a drone determine who is a terrorists if our troops on the ground couldn't? A hundred thousand 'innocent' Iraqis died from our invasion, Shock and Awe, remember that? So do drones have some special ability to detect bad guys that billion dollar stealth bombers don't have?

Then we come to the every day guy/gal on the street. They don't want to be interferred with by foreign troops and that inevitably happens.

But they don't mind bombs from drones? The drones don't interfere with their lives? Are these special bombs that only blow up bad people? And who exactly is "bad" if we are minding our own business and letting them live as they wish?

Then there's the "spreading of democracy". There is no "spreading" with drones. They eliminate terrorists and that's it.

Again, do drones have some special abilities I am not aware of? How do they know who is a terrorist and who is innocent? If we're not trying to spread democracy, why are we killing people? Are we bombing them because they look different or something?

They aren't telling people how their daughters can dress or how parents have no say whether or not their daughters dress like sluts and hang out with boys which is what happened in Afghanistan. 'The Afghans don't want their daughters wearing short shirts, going around with their head uncovered, listening to western music, being mixed in with boys in school.....the list goes on. Drones don't do that.

Well we're not using drones in Afghanistan, we actually have troops on the ground there. We're supposed to be training the Afghan security forces, but they keep killing our trainers. Maybe we should send in some of those smart drones to weed out the terrorists first, huh?

Fight terrorism? No problem. Change the culture? Big problem. It's as simple as that.

Except that terrorism is part of their culture. "For every one we kill, ten more are recruited!" Who said this? Or... "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?" What happened to the idea (principle and conviction) that we're creating more terrorists? Better yet, what about the simple notion of bringing our troops home and not fighting a war on terrorism? It's amazing how indiscriminate drone attacks have completely erased all those problems and concerns, and the people over there are now happy with our presence and loving us more each day!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

As for employers dropping health insurance, great! It's insane to have ones health insurance tied to their job when statistics show people change jobs over a dozen times during their life. Every time they change jobs there's usually a 3 month waiting period for benefits to kick in. That's a total of 36 months, three years, the average person will go without health insurance.

Well the thing is, employers were paying half the cost for the insurance, and now they won't be, the consumer will have to pay full price, which is going up since we have to cover millions who can't afford it. So it's going to be more expensive and employers aren't going to pitch in. How did that make anything better? The problem of portability was addressed in measures by republicans which the democrats rejected, we could have fixed that problem, along with many other problems. We didn't need to scrap the whole system and turn it all over to government.

 

[Howey]

Eventually, you'll realize that the rube's (Dixie's) posts aren't worth reading. He waxes moronically on and on because he enjoys the sound of his own 'voice'. He's an insufferably-boring blowhard.

And yes, wiping your ass with his printed-out word-vomit does at least make some decent use of his posts.

I certainly didn't read the OP and most of the thread because Dixie's so horribly misinformed it's just not worth it. But I would like to respond to a couple of things.

2/3 of all deaths in Afghanistan have happened on Obama's watch. But you're absolutely right, we don't see them like we did under Bush!

Are we changing perception by sending in drones?


With drone attacks?



What is the purpose of the drones?



By ordering more drone strikes?



Do more drone attacks make them happy or sad, I am confused.

Drones. Blah, blah, blah. Was Dixie bitching when Bush Sr. persistently used drones in the Gulf War (the substantiated war), killing tens of thousands of Iraqis? I think not.

But now that the buhlack man's using them the republicans are aghast!

I'm all for Obama using drones to take out terrorists. Saves the lifes of our troops, who have fallen in disfavor with the republicans and teabaggers like Dixie.

So the terrorists are using civilians as shields? So what. They did the same thing in Dubya's Iraq war when he attacked population centers trying to take down Saddam. Was Dixie screaming and yelling them?

Nope.

Then there's the OP:

If you vote on principles and conviction, you can't vote for Obama

Really? I'm voting for Obama because he has principles and conviction.

Romney's allegiance is to big banks, vulture capitalists, the Cayman Islands, and the Mormon Church, not necessarily in that order. How is that principled?

Romney flip flops on every issue depending on what day of the week it is. How is that conviction?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Drones. Blah, blah, blah. Was Dixie bitching when Bush Sr. persistently used drones in the Gulf War (the substantiated war), killing tens of thousands of Iraqis? I think not.

But now that the buhlack man's using them the republicans are aghast!

I'm not aghast, I just don't understand how this is concurrent with your principles and convictions, and you're not explaining that. We all remember how upset you were with Bush, and the rhetoric you spouted as your principles and convictions back then, but now that it's Obama doing the bombing, you seem to have completely abandoned your principles and lack any conviction. We don't hear about the wars anymore, we aren't bombarded with daily body counts, we don't see protests on the Mall, hell... I can't even get one of you to name the three countries we are bombing besides the two Bush was in! It's almost as if none of this is really happening, but it IS!

 

[Howey]

Eventually, you'll realize that the rube's (Dixie's) posts aren't worth reading. He waxes moronically on and on because he enjoys the sound of his own 'voice'. He's an insufferably-boring blowhard.

And yes, wiping your ass with his printed-out word-vomit does at least make some decent use of his posts.

2/3 of all deaths in Afghanistan have happened on Obama's watch. But you're absolutely right, we don't see them like we did under Bush!

I'm not aghast, I just don't understand how this is concurrent with your principles and convictions, and you're not explaining that. We all remember how upset you were with Bush, and the rhetoric you spouted as your principles and convictions back then, but now that it's Obama doing the bombing, you seem to have completely abandoned your principles and lack any conviction. We don't hear about the wars anymore, we aren't bombarded with daily body counts, we don't see protests on the Mall, hell... I can't even get one of you to name the three countries we are bombing besides the two Bush was in! It's almost as if none of this is really happening, but it IS!

I supported Gulf War I. I didn't support the Iraq War because it was predicated upon lies, not because of the use of drones. Please pay attention.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I supported Gulf War I. I didn't support the Iraq War because it was predicated upon lies, not because of the use of drones. Please pay attention.

Please pay attention, my posts are not specifically directed at YOU! My world does not revolve around YOU! The Liberal Democrat Socialist Marxist party and her supporters, proudly wrapped themselves in the American flag and protested Bush's "unjust" war on terror! Your party told us that we were taking the wrong approach, that our bombs and bullets were creating more terrorists, that we needed to get the hell out of their countries and leave them be! That we couldn't be the World's Police Department! That it's not our place to do their fighting and kill their bad guys! That we needed to sit down with the terrorists and diplomatically address their problems! THIS WAS your party's principles and convictions 4 years ago... but that has been totally abandoned, and we are now attacking 3 more countries, which incidentally, none of you seem to be able to name!

 

[Howey]

Then why did you quote me dumbfuck?

 

[apple0154]

Then why did you quote me dumbfuck?

Maybe you were the stand-in for Dixie's imaginary friend? Just because he's "looking" at you and talking doesn't mean he's talking to YOU.

But, hey, that's our Dix. :lol:

 

[apple0154]

Terrorists? How can a drone determine who is a terrorists if our troops on the ground couldn't? A hundred thousand 'innocent' Iraqis died from our invasion, Shock and Awe, remember that? So do drones have some special ability to detect bad guys that billion dollar stealth bombers don't have?



But they don't mind bombs from drones? The drones don't interfere with their lives? Are these special bombs that only blow up bad people? And who exactly is "bad" if we are minding our own business and letting them live as they wish?



Again, do drones have some special abilities I am not aware of? How do they know who is a terrorist and who is innocent? If we're not trying to spread democracy, why are we killing people? Are we bombing them because they look different or something?



Well we're not using drones in Afghanistan, we actually have troops on the ground there. We're supposed to be training the Afghan security forces, but they keep killing our trainers. Maybe we should send in some of those smart drones to weed out the terrorists first, huh?



Except that terrorism is part of their culture. "For every one we kill, ten more are recruited!" Who said this? Or... "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?" What happened to the idea (principle and conviction) that we're creating more terrorists? Better yet, what about the simple notion of bringing our troops home and not fighting a war on terrorism? It's amazing how indiscriminate drone attacks have completely erased all those problems and concerns, and the people over there are now happy with our presence and loving us more each day!

Dixie, Dixie, Dixie. Do try to differientiate between Afghanistan and Yemen. Or Afghanistan and Pakistan. Yemen is not turned upside down with thousands of troops. A strike here. A strike there. The strikes stop and everything returns to normal. We are not blowing up power stations or water plants, etc., so the majority of the population are not inconvenienced.

As for the drones knowing who the bad guys are "intelligence" forewards the target. The position is put in and the drone goes on it's merry way.

 

[apple0154]

Please pay attention, my posts are not specifically directed at YOU! My world does not revolve around YOU! The Liberal Democrat Socialist Marxist party and her supporters, proudly wrapped themselves in the American flag and protested Bush's "unjust" war on terror! Your party told us that we were taking the wrong approach, that our bombs and bullets were creating more terrorists, that we needed to get the hell out of their countries and leave them be! That we couldn't be the World's Police Department! That it's not our place to do their fighting and kill their bad guys! That we needed to sit down with the terrorists and diplomatically address their problems! THIS WAS your party's principles and convictions 4 years ago... but that has been totally abandoned, and we are now attacking 3 more countries, which incidentally, none of you seem to be able to name!

I assume I'm part of the "none of you" so I'll respond. I already named a country but do continue with your rant.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Dixie, Dixie, Dixie. Do try to differientiate between Afghanistan and Yemen. Or Afghanistan and Pakistan. Yemen is not turned upside down with thousands of troops. A strike here. A strike there. The strikes stop and everything returns to normal. We are not blowing up power stations or water plants, etc., so the majority of the population are not inconvenienced.

As for the drones knowing who the bad guys are "intelligence" forewards the target. The position is put in and the drone goes on it's merry way.

But why are drones sent to kill people we disagree with, I thought the idea was to leave them be and let them live the way they want, and get the fuck out of their business and stop trying to tell them how to live and killing their bad guys for them? What happened to all that talk? If your fundamental principles and convictions are; that we should get out of the middle east and stop meddling in their affairs, it seems drone attacks from our military intelligence is contradictory to that principle. You've not really explained this contradiction for us.

Strikes aren't here and there, they are all over and they haven't stopped, and things aren't returning to normal anywhere in the middle east, just turn on the news and watch for yourself. You don't know what these drones are striking or who they are killing because no one is telling you, hell... you don't even know what countries we're attacking with drones, much less the specific targets. Regardless, we shouldn't be droning ANYONE if we go by your principle and conviction that we shouldn't even be over there!

 

[apple0154]

But why are drones sent to kill people we disagree with, I thought the idea was to leave them be and let them live the way they want, and get the fuck out of their business and stop trying to tell them how to live and killing their bad guys for them? What happened to all that talk? If your fundamental principles and convictions are; that we should get out of the middle east and stop meddling in their affairs, it seems drone attacks from our military intelligence is contradictory to that principle. You've not really explained this contradiction for us.

Strikes aren't here and there, they are all over and they haven't stopped, and things aren't returning to normal anywhere in the middle east, just turn on the news and watch for yourself. You don't know what these drones are striking or who they are killing because no one is telling you, hell... you don't even know what countries we're attacking with drones, much less the specific targets. Regardless, we shouldn't be droning ANYONE if we go by your principle and conviction that we shouldn't even be over there!

Sometimes I wonder if you're just toying with me but then I see your nonsensical responses to other posters and think, hmmm, maybe Dixie really is a bit off. "Mentally challenged", I think is the politically correct term.

OK, Dix, try to follow along. Yes, the idea is to leave them alone, to leave them alone in the first place. Not to disrupt everything and then leave them alone. Not to interfere in their society to the point where some countries had their Police forces dismantled then leave them alone The idea is not to destroy their society and then leave them alone. Got that?

OK. So, the West has entered and screwed up a number of countries. They have taken over or infiltrated a part of the natural defences, such as the military and the politicians. So now we're left with countries which depend on the US. Afghanistan is the perfect example. And Iraq is another example. The Afghans do not run Afghanistan. The Iraqis are being trained/told how to run their country. So, along with taking over a country it's incumbent upon the West to take over the responsibility of protecting that country. Do you follow? Dismantle a country's military and Police force and someone has to replace it. Pretty basic logic.

You wrote, "I thought the idea was to leave them be and let them live the way they want, and get the fuck out of their business and stop trying to tell them how to live and killing their bad guys for them?" Yes, that is the idea BUT we have destroyed their ability to protect themselves by destroying their military and other security forces. This is why invading countries is not a good idea. This is why what I wrote is not a contradiction. This is why the mistakes Administrations make are not so easy to correct. This is why it's important in November, when you mark your "X", to remember how and why we're in the position we're in. Not just the US but the West, in general. NATO and all the other people there trying to straighten things out, trying to protect those countries until they can look after themselves all the while trying not to get too involved and end up making the situation worse like the problem with the Afghanistan/Pakistan border.

These are things the former incompetent administration never took into consideration. Things they never thought through. The typical Republican mind set like Romney talking about getting rid of ObamaCare and creating more jobs but not thinking about what the people are supposed to do while those "undefined" jobs become a reality. One year? Two years? Who knows? What guarantee do the people have except the guarantee that if they don't get a job they won't have any medical coverage. And even if things do turn around in some miraculous manner you're still left with millions of people without medical insurance. Back to square one. And a few years later another Democrat government will come along and people will complain they haven't picked up the pieces quick enough.

Break the cycle, Dix. Support Obama while he finishes his job.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Sometimes I wonder if you're just toying with me but then I see your nonsensical responses to other posters and think, hmmm, maybe Dixie really is a bit off. "Mentally challenged", I think is the politically correct term.

There's nothing wrong with me or my mental faculties. I sometimes think you are on meth and this is your outlet because you're too much of a loser to come up with anything better to do on meth.

OK, Dix, try to follow along. Yes, the idea is to leave them alone, to leave them alone in the first place. Not to disrupt everything and then leave them alone. Not to interfere in their society to the point where some countries had their Police forces dismantled then leave them alone The idea is not to destroy their society and then leave them alone. Got that?

Nope... I don't have where drone missiles being launched at sovereign nations has anything to do with these things. It seems that is the ANTITHESIS of leaving them alone, and you've not really explained this. You've tried a couple of times now, but it's just not making any sense to me, how we can be leaving them alone and not interfering or destroying their society with relentless drone missile attacks. Maybe if the drones were dropping money for reparations or food and medicine, it would make sense, but they are dropping bombs and killing people. Why are they killing them? I don't know, do you know? Is it because we don't like what they are doing? Isn't part of leaving them alone, letting them do what they want to do and not what we like?

OK. So, the West has entered and screwed up a number of countries. They have taken over or infiltrated a part of the natural defences, such as the military and the politicians. So now we're left with countries which depend on the US. Afghanistan is the perfect example. And Iraq is another example. The Afghans do not run Afghanistan. The Iraqis are being trained/told how to run their country. So, along with taking over a country it's incumbent upon the West to take over the responsibility of protecting that country. Do you follow? Dismantle a country's military and Police force and someone has to replace it. Pretty basic logic.

But the thing is, you are now advocating the Bush Doctrine! That was the thing your principles and convictions were opposed to before. When Bush did this in Iraq, you called it "Imperialist Occupation" and compared him to Hitler. You said this idea wouldn't work, they would end up in a bloody civil war... are you completely forgetting all of this stuff? Now you are telling me Bush had it right in Iraq, and we HAD to go in and restore stability and infrastructure following the fall of Saddam. I guess that clarifies why Obama used the Bush timeline for withdrawal of our forces in Iraq and never deviated from it? It's just that this completely contradicts the hell out of your previous principles and convictions.

You wrote, "I thought the idea was to leave them be and let them live the way they want, and get the fuck out of their business and stop trying to tell them how to live and killing their bad guys for them?" Yes, that is the idea BUT we have destroyed their ability to protect themselves by destroying their military and other security forces.

In the countries we are attacking with drones, we've not destroyed their military or security forces. So that's not a valid reason for us to be continuing to launch drone attacks on them. Sorry!

This is why invading countries is not a good idea.

But drone attacks are???

These are things the former incompetent administration never took into consideration. Things they never thought through.

But they DID think it through, they adopted the Bush Doctrine and were trying to promote democracy over there and train security forces so the people could protect themselves. You told us we needed to get out and let them fight their own fight. Now you are trying to steal the Bush Doctrine and pretend Obama came up with the idea, that takes some real balls to attempt, I must admit.

The typical Republican mind set like Romney talking about getting rid of ObamaCare and creating more jobs but not thinking about what the people are supposed to do while those "undefined" jobs become a reality. One year? Two years? Who knows? What guarantee do the people have except the guarantee that if they don't get a job they won't have any medical coverage. And even if things do turn around in some miraculous manner you're still left with millions of people without medical insurance. Back to square one. And a few years later another Democrat government will come along and people will complain they haven't picked up the pieces quick enough.

What we're finding out about the Republican mindset is, they are pretty intelligent in matters of foreign affairs and the debt crisis, even though they don't always tell you what you like to hear. Obama is good at blowing smoke up your ass and not following through on anything he promises, and you continue to support him because you like the smell of the smoke he's blowing up our ass... doesn't matter what he actually accomplishes or if he remains true to his principles and convictions.

 

[apple0154]

There's nothing wrong with me or my mental faculties. I sometimes think you are on meth and this is your outlet because you're too much of a loser to come up with anything better to do on meth.

Obviously you’ve never heard of “better living through chemistry” but I digress.

Nope... I don't have where drone missiles being launched at sovereign nations has anything to do with these things. It seems that is the ANTITHESIS of leaving them alone, and you've not really explained this. You've tried a couple of times now, but it's just not making any sense to me, how we can be leaving them alone and not interfering or destroying their society with relentless drone missile attacks. Maybe if the drones were dropping money for reparations or food and medicine, it would make sense, but they are dropping bombs and killing people. Why are they killing them? I don't know, do you know? Is it because we don't like what they are doing? Isn't part of leaving them alone, letting them do what they want to do and not what we like?

"I don't know" That is the first correct statement you’ve made in a long, long time. We’re progressing at a turtle’s pace but we are progressing.

Yes, I have tried to explain it to you a few times but I'm hitting a wall. An example is on the Afghanistan/Pakistan border. Afghanistan is unable to defend itself so the West defends it by trying to knock out the enemy that is crossing the border. It is the result of the West's actions that Afghanistan can't protect itself so it falls on the West to do so. What is difficult to understand?

But the thing is, you are now advocating the Bush Doctrine! That was the thing your principles and convictions were opposed to before. When Bush did this in Iraq, you called it "Imperialist Occupation" and compared him to Hitler. You said this idea wouldn't work, they would end up in a bloody civil war... are you completely forgetting all of this stuff? Now you are telling me Bush had it right in Iraq, and we HAD to go in and restore stability and infrastructure following the fall of Saddam. I guess that clarifies why Obama used the Bush timeline for withdrawal of our forces in Iraq and never deviated from it? It's just that this completely contradicts the hell out of your previous principles and convictions.

A wee bit confused, are you? There is no contradiction. Yes, we had to go in and restore stability and infrastructure in Iraq. No, we did not have to go in there in the first place. That is where you are having difficulty comprehending the situation. Because Obama used the Bush plan to get out does not mean Obama would have gone in there in the first place.

But drone attacks are???

Yes, drone attacks are. To use an analogy when the Police raid/bust a drug house they don’t blow up the entire neighborhood. The same principal applies.

But they DID think it through, they adopted the Bush Doctrine and were trying to promote democracy over there and train security forces so the people could protect themselves. You told us we needed to get out and let them fight their own fight. Now you are trying to steal the Bush Doctrine and pretend Obama came up with the idea, that takes some real balls to attempt, I must admit.

You’re fixated on my balls and distracted from the topic. Obviously if the country is going to be rebuilt due to our destruction we will try to rebuild it to our liking. That should be a no brainer. Do you suggest we destroy a country and then invite the Taliban or the Soviets to come in and establish a government?

Honestly, Dix. Do you have any part of a functioning brain?

What we're finding out about the Republican mindset is, they are pretty intelligent in matters of foreign affairs and the debt crisis, even though they don't always tell you what you like to hear. Obama is good at blowing smoke up your ass and not following through on anything he promises, and you continue to support him because you like the smell of the smoke he's blowing up our ass... doesn't matter what he actually accomplishes or if he remains true to his principles and convictions.

Oh, yes. The Repubs really know foreign policy. If the Repubs were in office now you can bet we’d be in Iran. Probably Syria, too. And the body bags would be arriving home on schedule and asses like you would be cheering on the wars and praising Cheney, Mr. War and destruction.

If you like war and destruction so much why don’t you play some video games. There’s all kinds of them showing arms and legs being blown off. Apparently the depictions of blood and guts are quite realistic. Get it out of your system, Dix.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Well about all I can say, Apple, is that you have now made the same case Bush and Republicans made, with the lone exception of going into Iraq. You have abandoned the hippie peace-nick principle of 'ending the war' and bringing the troops home, and are apparently now completely okay with bombing sovereign nations and imposing our will on others. Gone is the talk of exit strategies and timelines, breathless demands that we 'stop the madness' and get the hell out of their affairs. Gone is the conviction that we need to come home and let them fight their own bad guys. Gone is the principle of inciting further terrorism by our mere presence there. This has now been replaced with essentially, the Bush Doctrine, and you're okay with it as long as Obama is the one in charge.

What you have basically told us is, your true principles and convictions had nothing to do with policy and everything to do with who was implementing them. We're still following the same policy in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we've added three more countries (which you still can't name) to the list of people we're bombing. It simply doesn't matter that the cowboy Obama made the decision to drop bombs on sovereign countries who didn't attack us, and he did so unilaterally, without any approval from the UN or Congress! You wanted to impeach Bush for "lying" us into Iraq, but Obama has found a way around that, he just doesn't tell anybody anything, we don't get a reason or justification or any explanation, therefore he can't tell us a lie! He just does as he pleases, doesn't even have the debate or make his case before the UN and Congress, and he knows his little poodles like you out there, will go so far as to recite the Bush Doctrine as if sugar wouldn't melt in your mouth. Let it be known, you have abandoned all credibility in order to be a partisan hack.

 

[hazlnut]

The Liberal Democrat Socialist Marxist party and her supporters, proudly wrapped themselves in the American flag and protested Bush's "unjust" war on terror! Your party told us that we were taking the wrong approach, that our bombs and bullets were creating more terrorists, that we needed to get the hell out of their countries and leave them be!

Dixie. you're an idiot.

"Liberal Democrat Socialist Marxist" - four terms with four different meanings.

"proudly wrapped themselves in the American flag and protested Bush's "unjust" war on terror" - no, dummy, they were protest his war on Iraq. They one started based on lies.

 

[CanceledB]

Dixie. you're an idiot.

"Liberal Democrat Socialist Marxist" - four terms with four different meanings.

"proudly wrapped themselves in the American flag and protested Bush's "unjust" war on terror" - no, dummy, they were protest his war on Iraq. They one started based on lies.

Slight lil' difference there.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Dixie. you're an idiot.

"Liberal Democrat Socialist Marxist" - four terms with four different meanings.

"proudly wrapped themselves in the American flag and protested Bush's "unjust" war on terror" - no, dummy, they were protest his war on Iraq. They one started based on lies.

And four years after Obama is elected, we STILL have troops in Iraq! PLUS we're bombing three more countries we weren't "lied to" about because we weren't even TOLD about! EVERYTHING you stood against with Bush, is being done under Obama, and you just aren't being told about it, it's all kept hush-hush and off the news, and as I have proven in this thread, you fuckwits don't even know what three countries we're dropping bombs on, much less why or who, or any damn thing else! And the really amazing thing is, it doesn't seem to matter to you! It's as if all your principles and convictions about American intervention have vanished. We don't hear you demanding Congressional hearings on why the president secretly decided to start drone bombing whoever the hell he pleased, without going to the UN or Congress or any or our allies, or even admitting it publicly, until months after the fact, when it can't be denied any longer.

No, Obama didn't LIE us into war, he just didn't tell us anything! You can't lie if you don't open your mouth, right? Yet again, ANOTHER of your precious principles and convictions regarding "transparency" is shot to hell, and you don't give two shits! So basically, you people don't have any real principles or convictions, and it doesn't matter if Obama does what he says or follows through on his promises, he intends well, he means to do well, he is trying! It doesn't matter that he didn't close Gitmo, he WANTED to, that's what counts! It doesn't matter that he is bombing other countries, he has the best of intentions! It doesn't matter that 2/3rds of the deaths to our soldiers in Afghanistan have happened under his watch, he's trying his best to get us out of there! The one thing you seem to have plenty of, as well as Obama, are EXCUSES!

 

[apple0154]

Well about all I can say, Apple, is that you have now made the same case Bush and Republicans made, with the lone exception of going into Iraq. You have abandoned the hippie peace-nick principle of 'ending the war' and bringing the troops home, and are apparently now completely okay with bombing sovereign nations and imposing our will on others. Gone is the talk of exit strategies and timelines, breathless demands that we 'stop the madness' and get the hell out of their affairs. Gone is the conviction that we need to come home and let them fight their own bad guys. Gone is the principle of inciting further terrorism by our mere presence there. This has now been replaced with essentially, the Bush Doctrine, and you're okay with it as long as Obama is the one in charge.

What you have basically told us is, your true principles and convictions had nothing to do with policy and everything to do with who was implementing them. We're still following the same policy in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we've added three more countries (which you still can't name) to the list of people we're bombing. It simply doesn't matter that the cowboy Obama made the decision to drop bombs on sovereign countries who didn't attack us, and he did so unilaterally, without any approval from the UN or Congress! You wanted to impeach Bush for "lying" us into Iraq, but Obama has found a way around that, he just doesn't tell anybody anything, we don't get a reason or justification or any explanation, therefore he can't tell us a lie! He just does as he pleases, doesn't even have the debate or make his case before the UN and Congress, and he knows his little poodles like you out there, will go so far as to recite the Bush Doctrine as if sugar wouldn't melt in your mouth. Let it be known, you have abandoned all credibility in order to be a partisan hack.

As Hazlnut says you're a idiot.

If you don't understand the difference between selectively taking out an enemy verses troop invasion and attempting to change a culture there's no point in further discussion. As for the countries getting droned state a country and make your case. No one is playing your game.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

As Hazlnut says you're a idiot.

If you don't understand the difference between selectively taking out an enemy verses troop invasion and attempting to change a culture there's no point in further discussion. As for the countries getting droned state a country and make your case. No one is playing your game.

I understand the difference, apparently you don't understand the difference between the Bush Doctrine and your previously stated principled position of leaving them the fuck alone and getting the fuck out of their sandbox. And you're right, the thread has devolved into another silly attempt by you, to get the last word in. We're still "occupying" two middle-eastern countries, while 'selectively taking out the enemy' in three more, which Bush also did in Iraq and Afghanistan before we went in to restore order and help them train security, which you now claim is essential that we continue to do in Afghanistan. (But shouldn't have been done in Iraq!)

You mentioned Yemen, so far it's the only one of the three countries any of you dumbbells have come up with, but you've not explained why we are bombing them, and what we are trying to accomplish. You've not explained how this helps our relations with Muslims. Previously, you were opposed to US intervention, we needed to leave them alone and let them live how they please and mind our own damn business, but now, it's apparently okay as long as we don't put troops in to help them restore order and rebuild. (oh but wait... that's what MUST be done in Afghanistan, that's why he hasn't ended that war and brought the troops home!) Apparently, you think they don't mind and can understand Obama is trying to get out of their business by dropping drone missiles on their heads instead of helping them establish democratic government. Instead of pissing off Muslims in two countries, we've made it five under Obama.... He believes in Spreading the Drones! Eh?

Just like every issue regarding Obama and his rhetoric, you have proven that you have no real principles and convictions. Even the things you seemingly hold dear to heart, you can abandon with Obama because he says the things you want to hear. It doesn't matter if he follows the exact same policies of the last administration, doesn't matter who he bombs and kills, or if he even brings home the troops, he means well and intends well, and that's all that really matters to you pinheads.