is it the political climate?....

[Damocles]

Maybe, but don't overstate the situation. The Dems may lose some seats but they won't lose majorities in either house and that's assuming they pass some for of HC reform. Two years later, in 2012, if those reforms have proven affectie, Republicans will have a political problem on their hand.

The reverse is true of the reforms are not affective.

Either way HC reform is coming. As Obama is sayinig now, How high do rates have to be and how many people have to be droped from coverage before it happens.

It will happen, it's just a matter of when.

This has to be the stupidest of comments. It can't be found "effective" in 2012 when it doesn't take effect until 2013. That's just retarded.

I'm sorry Mott, it isn't just you saying it either. Every D out there is like, "Once the people start using it they're gonna love it and re-elect Obama before it ever takes effect because they'll go back in time after they see its awesome effectiveness. In fact just how awesomely effective it is will cause the world to just to turn backwards Superman-style so people can vote for him again!"

Seriously, nobody is going to be voting on the effectiveness of something they cannot access for more than a year before that election. It's stupid to suggest that they would.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

This has to be the stupidest of comments. It can't be found "effective" in 2012 when it doesn't take effect until 2013. That's just retarded.

I'm sorry Mott, it isn't just you saying it either. Every D out there is like, "Once the people start using it they're gonna love it and re-elect Obama before it ever takes effect because they'll go back in time after they see its awesome effectiveness. In fact just how awesomely effective it is will cause the world to just to turn backwards Superman-style so people can vote for him again!"

That's a null-argument. How can you know that if it is never implemented? There's lots of of factual evidence in the rest of the industrialized world of just how popular these reforms are. Your evidence on the other hand is anecdotal.

It's time to deal with reality. These reforms are coming whether you like them or not. The nation just cannot afford our present system. Those who stand in the way of these reforms will eventually pay a higher political cost in the long term then those whom advocate them will in the short term.

We have the evidence of over a dozen modern, capitalist, industrialized nations who have embraced these reforms to learn from and you have.....well what do you have?

 

[Damocles]

That's a null-argument. How can you know that if it is never implemented? There's lots of of factual evidence in the rest of the industrialized world of just how popular these reforms are. Your evidence on the other hand is anecdotal.

It's time to deal with reality. These reforms are coming whether you like them or not. The nation just cannot afford our present system. Those who stand in the way of these reforms will eventually pay a higher political cost in the long term then those whom advocate them will in the short term.

We have the evidence of over a dozen modern, capitalist, industrialized nations who have embraced these reforms to learn from and you have.....well what do you have?

Duh. That's my point!

You said that they'll be elected and think that it is awesome in 2012, BUT IT DOESN'T TAKE EFFECT UNTIL 2013!

You said, "In 2012 if they've proven effective."

They CAN'T PROVE EFFECTIVE because they will not be IN EFFECT for that proof until 2013.

 

[Canceled1]

That's a null-argument. How can you know that if it is never implemented? There's lots of of factual evidence in the rest of the industrialized world of just how popular these reforms are. Your evidence on the other hand is anecdotal.

It's time to deal with reality. These reforms are coming whether you like them or not. The nation just cannot afford our present system. Those who stand in the way of these reforms will eventually pay a higher political cost in the long term then those whom advocate them will in the short term.

We have the evidence of over a dozen modern, capitalist, industrialized nations who have embraced these reforms to learn from and you have.....well what do you have?

Two years later, in 2012, if those reforms have proven affectie, Republicans will have a political problem on their hand

That isn't a "null" argument, Hoopy. That is just plain "dull" and I might add "dumb". How can "Two years later in 2012 if those reforms have proven attectie (sic)" if they don't even going into flippin' effect until 2013????

Pass the koolaide. Hoopy's thirsty!

 

[apple0154]

Not to speak for Mott but I think his point is that over the next 30-some months, from now until Nov/2012, journalists and scholars will take a closer look at the bill. As people continue to lose coverage and/or suffer severe financial loss those situations will be compared to what would have happened if the bill had been implemented.

Once the public understands the benefits of government involvement in health care, once concrete examples can be given, there will be no turning back. No country has ever turned back. Not one and we can bet this discussion occurred in every one of them.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Not to speak for Mott but I think his point is that over the next 30-some months, from now until Nov/2012, journalists and scholars will take a closer look at the bill. As people continue to lose coverage and/or suffer severe financial loss those situations will be compared to what would have happened if the bill had been implemented.

Once the public understands the benefits of government involvement in health care, once concrete examples can be given, there will be no turning back. No country has ever turned back. Not one and we can bet this discussion occurred in every one of them.

Exactly! Those who oppose these reforms are swimming against the current of change and have the most to lose politically in the long run. In the short term, who knows what will happen and congressmen are notoriously short term thinkers.

Whatever, my main point is your not going to see whole sale changes in either house becuse of his legislation in 2010. I'm sure the Dems will lose some seats but I bet that has a hell of a lot more to do with frustration and anger at incumbants and their entrenched partisanship then it will have to do with HC reform.

I'm fed up with congress's inability to get things done due to partisan bikering. A pox on both parties. They were voted in to get a job done and they are not doing their job.