Is Rudy really Insane?

[Damocles]

This is another of those things about which we're just going to have to disagree.

First, I think it's far worse to denigrate the outsider, the foreigner, than it is to denigrate the neighbor whom you might actually know. I despise all forms of nationalism, especially reflexive home-boy-ism. I'd far rather hear an American bitch about stupid, destructive Americans than about allegedly stupid, destructive Arabs or Persians.

Secondly, feelings are just feelings. Yes, I want to kill most evangelicals -- for example -- but that doesn't mean I'm going to do it. I know perfectly well that acting on these desires would be unpardonably immoral. Okay, so I hate them. Big deal. They pretty much hate me too. Frankly, I can't get too worked up about it.

Denigrating is far different than deciding their life has no value.

We will disagree. And I will continue to put it forward in this manner. The same people objecting to being called "unamerican" calling, even in jest, for the death of another based only on belief differences have no moral high ground. It is the ultimate of "unamerican" calls to wish for their death.

And before you suggest I wouldn't say this to another on "my side" you would be wrong in that assessment. Shoot, I even called out those on "my side" for the 'unamerican' comments.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Denigrating is far different than deciding their life has no value.

We will disagree. And I will continue to put it forward in this manner. The same people objecting to being called "unamerican" calling, even in jest, for the death of another based only on belief differences have no moral high ground. It is the ultimate of "unamerican" calls to wish for their death.

And before you suggest I wouldn't say this to another on "my side" you would be wrong in that assessment. Shoot, I even called out those on "my side" for the 'unamerican' comments.

Deciding? What do you mean "deciding"?

I may feel that their life has no value -- and I often do -- but that doesn't mean I believe their life has no value. Emotionally, I despise the charismatic protestants, on the whole. I mean really despise them. As in, I feel they're not only stupid but destructive and immoral. Long ago, however, I decided that my own emotions are unreliable and often beastial. That's nothing against me, personally, since everyone's emotions are like that. The animalistic and ugly is part of being human. It's all in how you, the individual, deals with it.

I choose to deal with it by letting it out and looking at it. Sharing it with others of like mind. I believe that if we get it out in the open we're less likely to let it fester and, gods forbid, act on it.

 

[uscitizen]

Damo, I care for neither "cool" nor whether anyone perceives me as possessing it. As for joking about killing Americans, that's far better than joking about killing Arabs or Mexicans or Chinese. At least I'm picking on my own rather than others.

Yep, there are indeed Americans whom I believe could best serve the species by dropping dead and taking their deformed spawn with them. Big deal. There are lots of Americans who feel the same way about me. Doesn't bother me in the least.

A big ROGER THAT

 

[uscitizen]

Shoot, I even called out those on "my side" for the 'unamerican' comments.
//

And that is primarially the group I am referring to Damo.

 

[Damocles]

Deciding? What do you mean "deciding"?

I may feel that their life has no value -- and I often do -- but that doesn't mean I believe their life has no value. Emotionally, I despise the charismatic protestants, on the whole. I mean really despise them. As in, I feel they're not only stupid but destructive and immoral. Long ago, however, I decided that my own emotions are unreliable and often beastial. That's nothing against me, personally, since everyone's emotions are like that. The animalistic and ugly is part of being human. It's all in how you, the individual, deals with it.

I choose to deal with it by letting it out and looking at it. Sharing it with others of like mind. I believe that if we get it out in the open we're less likely to let it fester and, gods forbid, act on it.

"feeling" they have no value is no different than deciding they have no value. Playing, "I can feel one way while I think another." is a grubby little argument from somebody attempting to spin out of the "unamerican" hypocrisy. These people are so 'unamerican' in your 'feeling' that they deserve to die for their horrid crime of disagreement. Either thought is wrong for the US, and is a great victory for those who seek to divide America.

I find it no different than the "unamerican" label. It seems that they were "speaking out" and "not allowing it to fester" so that they would "not act on" the thought that if you were unAmerican, you were an "enemy".

 

[OrnotBitwise]

"feeling" they have no value is no different than deciding they have no value. Playing, "I can feel one way while I think another." is a grubby little argument from somebody attempting to spin out of the "unamerican" hypocrisy. These people are so 'unamerican' in your 'feeling' that they deserve to die for their horrid crime of disagreement. Either thought is wrong for the US, and is a great victory for those who seek to divide America.

I find it no different than the "unamerican" label. It seems that they were "speaking out" and "not allowing it to fester" so that they would "not act on" the thought that if you were unAmerican, you were an "enemy".

Ah, we come to a genuine disagreement at last. I completely disagree, in fact. I have emotional drives that run contrary to my rational decisions all the time. I submit that almost everyone does.

Feelings -- emotions -- are immaterial and ephemeral. They're important only to the degree to which they influence decisions and actions. In my own "perfect" (hah!) world, no one would be held accountable for their feelings, only for their decisions and actions. That's why I so consistently say that I'm uninterested in Good Intentions. Emotions are just assignations with whores: cheap, easy and of little consequence.

I don't care if someone has feelings of hatred for me. I honestly don't. I may well have similar feelings for him -- or her. Probably do, all things considered. All I care about are the decisions he or she makes in light of those feelings.

 

[Damocles]

Ah, we come to a genuine disagreement at last. I completely disagree, in fact. I have emotional drives that run contrary to my rational decisions all the time. I submit that almost everyone does.

Feelings -- emotions -- are immaterial and ephemeral. They're important only to the degree to which they influence decisions and actions. In my own "perfect" (hah!) world, no one would be held accountable for their feelings, only for their decisions and actions. That's why I so consistently say that I'm uninterested in Good Intentions. Emotions are just assignations with whores: cheap, easy and of little consequence.

I don't care if someone has feelings of hatred for me. I honestly don't. I may well have similar feelings for him -- or her. Probably do, all things considered. All I care about are the decisions he or she makes in light of those feelings.

Emotions are a physical reaction to thought. Without the thought the emotion will not follow. In some measure you have decided on the value of others simply because of political disagreement, and I find that sad. As sad as those who devalue others because of differences of skin pigmentation.

If after a racist diatribe that ended in wishing for the death of fellow Americans of a different pigmentation I said I "felt" black people were bad, but I only said all those bad things about them to "get it out" so I "wouldn't act on those feelings" I think you would have an entirely different view of this. In fact an extremely different view. You only "feel" that way because you think that way.

You certainly wouldn't hear Jesse Jackson saying it "wasn't in my heart" when I spoke of "feeling" that way and of fearing I would act physically if I didn't denigrate them verbally....

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Emotions are a physical reaction to thought. Without the thought the emotion will not follow. In some measure you have decided on the value of others simply because of political disagreement, and I find that sad. As sad as those who devalue others because of differences of skin pigmentation.

If after a racist diatribe that ended in wishing for the death of fellow Americans of a different pigmentation I said I "felt" black people were bad, but I only said all those bad things about them to "get it out" so I "wouldn't act on those feelings" I think you would have an entirely different view of this. In fact an extremely different view. You only "feel" that way because you think that way.

You certainly wouldn't hear Jesse Jackson saying it "wasn't in my heart" when I spoke of "feeling" that way and of fearing I would act physically if I didn't denigrate them verbally....

No, I believe you've the cart before the horse here. Emotions are physical reactions that precede thought. Emotion comes before cognition; emotion is more primitive and much faster than thought. Emotion results from learned responses over which we have little or no rational control. Not without long and painful effort -- as in therapy, for example.

 

[uscitizen]

No, I believe you've the cart before the horse here. Emotions are physical reactions that precede thought. Emotion comes before cognition; emotion is more primitive and much faster than thought. Emotion results from learned responses over which we have little or no rational control. Not without long and painful effort -- as in therapy, for example.

I agree, emotions are base level instinctive stuff.

 

[Damocles]

No, I believe you've the cart before the horse here. Emotions are physical reactions that precede thought. Emotion comes before cognition; emotion is more primitive and much faster than thought. Emotion results from learned responses over which we have little or no rational control. Not without long and painful effort -- as in therapy, for example.

Emotions cannot come before thought, it is impossible. They are a reaction to specific stimuli. That the thought may not be conscious, does not mean it is not there.

 

[Damocles]

I agree, emotions are base level instinctive stuff.

Instincts are also based on stimuli, it takes at least unconscious thought to be able to react to such stimuli. Each emotion is preceded by a thought. In humans almost all unconscious thought follows what has been at one time or another a conscious lesson.

You get slapped, it hurts. The next time mommy raises that hand "fear" then flinch... It followed a thought. It wasn't "instinctive" in the way you describe.

 

[uscitizen]

Instincts are also based on stimuli, it takes at least unconscious thought to be able to react to such stimuli. Each emotion is preceded by a thought. In humans almost all unconscious thought follows what has been at one time or another a conscious lesson.

You get slapped, it hurts. The next time mommy raises that hand "fear" then flinch... It followed a thought. It wasn't "instinctive" in the way you describe.

So the hurt is thought ?

You are just streetching this out Damo, give it up.

 

[Damocles]

So the hurt is thought ?

You are just streetching this out Damo, give it up.

No the thought is the memory that created the reaction to the stimuli. It is unconscious and quick as lightning. This way others can blame their "emotions", it is the reason that during therapy you spend so much time finding out what causes those emotions.

Each of them are preceded by a thought, a memory, a preconceived idea that creates an illusion of involuntary action, however when brought to the light one is able to overcome the immediate presented 'unconscious' stimuli, to create new stimuli.

I am not the one stretching.

As I stated before, if I used this excuse to cover up racism you guys would be singing a different tune. It is hypocrisy, you know it, and you twist and spin in an attempt to escape it. It is your version of "They are unAmerican!" but you attempt to wash it away. "I didn't choose to be this way, it is only my emotions!"

It is only their emotions that make them want to call you "unAmerican", they are wrong too.

 

[uscitizen]

Yeah that is why a baby crys when smacked on the butt for the first time after being born ?

 

[Damocles]

Yeah that is why a baby crys when smacked on the butt for the first time after being born ?

That is stimuli. And the vast majority are not smacked at all, the very thrust into the world is enough to make most take that first breath, then cry.

However, wanting to avoid such negative stimuli in the future is a thought, "instinctive" reactions such as flinching are not instinct they are learned, did the baby fear the hand before it knew it could bring such pain?

 

[uscitizen]

That is stimuli. And the vast majority are not smacked at all, the very thrust into the world is enough to make most take that first breath, then cry.

However, wanting to avoid such negative stimuli in the future is a thought, "instinctive" reactions such as flinching are not instinct they are learned, did the baby fear the hand before it knew it could bring such pain?

And the emotions related to the mating instinct are learned ? Or hormonally driven ?

 

[Damocles]

And the emotions related to the mating instinct are learned ? Or hormonally driven ?

They are both. What we perceive to be "beautiful" is learned by outward stimuli. Hence, in the past, fat women were perceived to be beautiful, nowadays it is more often the skinny girl who gets the man.

When we then later see what we perceive to be "beautiful" it creates a reaction in us, but it began with learned stimuli. Such as television for kiddies nowadays often teaches boys to perceive skinny women as more "beautiful" and therefore they become attracted to them.

Of course, other stimuli come into play, such as the attraction to the same sex. However, how we react to what excites us in that way, the emotion, is also learned. Sometimes even from trial and error. This is often what causes other emotions in those with such inclinations. The "fear" that they are the only ones like that, the belief that they are "less". This is often followed from a more direct teaching. A father, for instance, who openly denigrates homosexuals.

 

[Damocles]

Good night there, uscit. I am tired. It was fun.

I cannot see how people who react so negatively towards people who emote out "unAmerican" can rely on the same excuse to spout out a wish of death upon the same. It seems counterintuitive to me to rely on the same reaction and find an excuse to make it seem okay somewhere inside myself. Instead of excusing what you find so inexcusable in others would it not be better to do a little introspection?

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Emotions cannot come before thought, it is impossible. They are a reaction to specific stimuli. That the thought may not be conscious, does not mean it is not there.

No, it's not impossible. Emotional responses are triggered by external stimuli directly, before explicit thought kicks in.

 

[Litmus]

We didn't LEARN to have a sex drive or fall in love. Emotions are things our dna learned to ensure our survival, and often they are a BETTER indicator of what will ensure our survival than a reliance upon the nihilist memes implanted by hierarchical, corrupt, and manipulative society.