Israeli response: is a 2 for 1 ratio acceptable?

BartenderElite said:
Is that the "pro life" stance?
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Yup

Abortion is not war time killing..not even close to the same



As we understand the biblical teaching, war-time killing belongs in this second category. It is not murder. It’s a necessary act carried out under the divinely instituted authority of the state. It’s calculated to ensure national security and promote the common good. This kind of killing is something very different from the killing of pre-born children. We would include here the tragic accidental deaths that come under the heading of so-called “collateral damage.”

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family-qa/pro-life-perspective-on-war/
 
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BartenderElite said:
I know what you're saying, but the morality can get murky.

It's basically akin to a hostage situation. Not just the actual hostages being held there, but using civilians as shields is a kind of extension of that. All are innocents, put in harm's way, for leverage.

In a normal hostage situation, every effort is made to protect the hostages. I'm just not sure we can say oh well, and put all of the blame on Hamas for whatever happens. They're wrong to use civilians - but is it right to ignore that they are in favor of the prime objective?
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I think IDF should take all reasonable steps to minimize harm to civilians.

I don't have any expertise in military tactics, so I don't know how to accomplish that.

HAMAS specifically planned and executed a surprise attack on thousands of unarmed and unsuspecting civilians. I don't see how Israel can just sit back and stoically accept that body blow, without just inviting another one.

But I cannot accept the proposition that IDF bears sole blame for civilian deaths.

Hamas claims to be a legitimate ruling authority, with armed police and militia. They deny being bloodthirsty terrorists.

Legitimate ruling authorities do not have their armed forces hide behind civilians. The Poles knew they were going to lose to the Wehrmacht in 1939, but they didn't hide behind Polish civilians. They attempted to fight the Nazis toe to toe, and keep the Wehrmacht away from civilians. That's what a legitimate ruling authority and it's armed forces are supposed to do.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Starting wars has consequences. The US wasn't faulted for the huuuuge lopsided kill ratio of American deaths to Japanese deaths in WWII...and rightfully so.

The American Left has a long history of bringing up the lopsided Arab-Israeli kill ratio; the Palestinians launch rocket or mortar from the roof of a mosque into an Israeli market killing one person and wounding a few. Israel retaliates with an airstrike on the launch point killing 50. That's not going too far. That's just war.

What else would you have the Israelis do? If the Mexican cartels crossed into El Paso committing mass murder and rape then kidnapped 150 Americans to trade for all the cartel prisoners in the US, would you fault Biden for sending the Marine Corps over the border to wipe them out? What if the cartels use meat shields? Should we give up and go home?
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That "huuuuge lopsided kill ratio" was against "Japs". There's similar prejudice now. Amnesty International and others are accusing Israel of committing war crimes in lieu of risking casualties with a ground invasion, arguing it's not a military necessity to destroy cities from the air.
 
BartenderElite said:
I wasn't asking seriously.

It most definitely is not a pro-life stance.
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There is a lot of difference between war killing and murder abortion. A murder is an act in which a one person kills the other whereas war is an act in which both the parties want to kill each other.
 
Cypress said:
I think IDF should take all reasonable steps to minimize harm to civilians.

I don't have any expertise in military tactics, so I don't know how to accomplish that.

HAMAS specifically planned and executed a surprise attack on thousands of unarmed and unsuspecting civilians. I don't see how Israel can just sit back and stoically accept that body blow, without just inviting another one.

But I cannot accept the proposition that IDF bears sole blame for civilian deaths.

Hamas claims to be a legitimate ruling authority, with armed police and militia. They deny being bloodthirsty terrorists.

Legitimate ruling authorities do not have their armed forces hide behind civilians. The Poles knew they were going to lose to the Wehrmacht in 1939, but they didn't hide behind Polish civilians. They attempted to fight the Nazis toe to toe, and keep the Wehrmacht away from civilians. That's what a legitimate ruling authority and it's armed forces are supposed to do.
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That's all pretty fair.

And I don't think IDF bears sole blame either. Obviously, Hamas is putting people in harm's way, as a form of defense & to protect themselves.

But I also think it's a moral conundrum. The line is somewhere - has Israel crossed it? I started the thread to get the opinions of others on that. I think for some here, there is NO line, which I can't agree with. Some see a line, but err more on the side of supporting any Israeli action right now, simply because of how horrific the initial Hamas attack was. It demands a response, and Hamas absolutely needs to be brought to justice one way or another.

I think on this site & elsewhere, there has been some conflation of Hamas w/ Gazan civilians - which is definitely troubling. If Israel has to kill civilians to get to Hamas - there should at minimum be some concern and compassion for the suffering caused.
 
Cypress said:
I think IDF should take all reasonable steps to minimize harm to civilians.

I don't have any expertise in military tactics, so I don't know how to accomplish that.

HAMAS specifically planned and executed a surprise attack on thousands of unarmed and unsuspecting civilians. I don't see how Israel can just sit back and stoically accept that body blow, without just inviting another one.

But I cannot accept the proposition that IDF bears sole blame for civilian deaths.

Hamas claims to be a legitimate ruling authority, with armed police and militia. They deny being bloodthirsty terrorists.

Legitimate ruling authorities do not have their armed forces hide behind civilians. The Poles knew they were going to lose to the Wehrmacht in 1939, but they didn't hide behind Polish civilians. They attempted to fight the Nazis toe to toe, and keep the Wehrmacht away from civilians. That's what a legitimate ruling authority and it's armed forces are supposed to do.
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The Israeli Knesset, much less the IDF, isn't stupid. They understand the lopsided body count and the pictures of shredded Palestinian babies doesn't work in their favor. The problem is "Do we kill civilians while killing essential military targets or do we let these animals live long enough to kill more Israelis?". Bibi isn't king. He'd be gone tonight if the majority of Israeli leadership, both civilian and military, didn't agree with the mission of destroying Hamas, once and for all.

Agreed about Hamas.

Thanks for historical comparison and agreed. There's a difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter; like the Poles, freedom fighters don't hide behind civilians. Only terrorists hide behind civilians, much less target them specifically.

Death to all terrorists, bring to justice all of their supporters.
 
Doc Dutch said:
The Israeli Knesset, much less the IDF, isn't stupid. They understand the lopsided body count and the pictures of shredded Palestinian babies doesn't work in their favor. The problem is "Do we kill civilians while killing essential military targets or do we let these animals live long enough to kill more Israelis?". Bibi isn't king. He'd be gone tonight if the majority of Israeli leadership, both civilian and military, didn't agree with the mission of destroying Hamas, once and for all.

Agreed about Hamas.

Thanks for historical comparison and agreed. There's a difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter; like the Poles, freedom fighters don't hide behind civilians. Only terrorists hide behind civilians, much less target them specifically.

Death to all terrorists, bring to justice all of their supporters.
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Good point. A lot of Israeli citizens oppose military strikes in civilian areas and oppose any kind of genocide of Palestinians. Israel is still a democracy, and there are limits to what their military can do before losing support internationally or domestically.


Planing a surprise attack on unarmed civilians at an outdoor concert is unfathomable. Who even thinks that up? I have no mercy for Hamas.
 
martin said:
That "huuuuge lopsided kill ratio" was against "Japs". There's similar prejudice now. Amnesty International and others are accusing Israel of committing war crimes in lieu of risking casualties with a ground invasion, arguing it's not a military necessity to destroy cities from the air.
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No doubt there was prejudice in 1945. Do you really believe the US would have killed Germans with less vigor? Who was the atomic bomb originally built to destroy, martin?

I disagree that the higher casualty was solely due to racism just like I disagree with the implication that Israelis are committing "genocide" by seeking to eliminate Hamas and any terrorists who seek to murder and rape Israelis.

Remember when NOW supported Bill Clinton against the women accusing him of adultery and sexual molestation? That's when I lost all respect for them as leaders for women's rights. If you claim is true, then I no longer respect AI "and others" for supporting mass murdering rapists and baby killers.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
Just like in Hiroshima.
And the Japanese are a lot more civilized than Palestinians.

Wars are fought to be won.
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Most wars are for-profit. The war machine doesn't care if we win or lose, as long as western corporations get control of the natural resources.
 
Cypress said:
Good point. A lot of Israeli citizens oppose military strikes in civilian areas and oppose any kind of genocide of Palestinians.

Israel is still a democracy, and there are limits to what their military can do before losing support internationally or domestically.

Planing a surprise attack on unarmed civilians at an outdoor concert is unfathomable. Who even thinks that up? I have no mercy for Hamas.
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Thanks. I agree on being against the genocide of Palestinians, much less Jews or anybody else. I've yet to see anyone offer evidence that's what the Israelis are doing. IMO, it's all bullshit claims to counter the facts of 75 years of constant Arab attacks to destroy Israel.

Agreed on them being a democracy; it's up to the will of the people. Consider that, as much angst there is about Trump, the fact the past several elections have been so close says something by itself. This isn't about Trump, it's about the free will of Americans to decide for themselves. True, leadership has an effect. The two major political parties have a great effect upon Americans along with "the media", Facebook and a host of other sources. The big question I'm curious about is "Do Americans have free will or are most sheeple?" What's driving this conflict of ideology?

IMHO, Samual Huntington was correct in his ground-breaking 1992 article "A Clash of Civiliations". Specifically, the clashes between the Western world, Islam and the Chinese-led Asian cultures.
https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~lebel...OfCivilizationsAndTheRemakingofWorldOrder.pdf

From the original article (page 374 of the pdf):
T HE NEXT PATTERN OF CONFLICT
WORL D POLITICS IS entering a new phase, and intellectuals have
not hesitated to proliferate visions of what it will be—the end of history, the return of traditional rivalries between nation states, and the
decline of the nation state from the conflicting pulls of tribalism and
globalism, among others. Each of these visions catches aspects of the
emerging reality. Yet they all miss a crucial, indeed a central, aspect
of what global politics is likely to be in the coming years.

It is my hypothesis that the fundamental source of conflict in this
new world will not be primarily ideological or primarily economic.
T h e great divisions among humankind and the dominating source of
conflict will be cultural. Nation states will remain the most powerful
actors in world affairs, but the principal conflicts of global politics will
occur between nations and groups of different civilizations. Th e clash
of civilizations will dominate global politics. Th e fault lines between
civilizations will be the battle lines of the future.
 
Doc Dutch said:
No doubt there was prejudice in 1945. Do you really believe the US would have killed Germans with less vigor? Who was the atomic bomb originally built to destroy, martin?

I disagree that the higher casualty was solely due to racism just like I disagree with the implication that Israelis are committing "genocide" by seeking to eliminate Hamas and any terrorists who seek to murder and rape Israelis.

Remember when NOW supported Bill Clinton against the women accusing him of adultery and sexual molestation? That's when I lost all respect for them as leaders for women's rights. If you claim is true, then I no longer respect AI "and others" for supporting mass murdering rapists and baby killers.
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I said prejudice is an element not a “sole” cause. It’s on both sides. On college campuses here Jewish students are targeted. On your last point it’s absurd to
equate condemning the shelling of population centers in Gaza with supporting mass murder. I suspect you know that.
 
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BartenderElite said:
Crying?

You get that innocent civilians are being killed....right?
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"War is hell" - General Sherman, hero of the modern Left. :)

If Hamas, much less the Arabs, gave a shit about "innocent civilians", why do they persist in attacking Israelis, murdering babies and raping women?
 
martin said:
I said prejudice is an element not a “sole” cause. It’s on both sides. On college campuses here Jewish students are targeted.

On your last point it’s absurd to
equate condemning the shelling of population centers in Gaza with supporting mass murder.
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Human beings can be very bigoted for several reasons. Very few of them logical.

Are you claiming Israelis are committing genocide and violating international rules of war or will you admit it's Hamas that is committing war crimes and the Israelis who adhere to rules of war?
 
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