Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama

[Iolo/Penderyn]

But it's not misusing the Bible or Christian tradition when the Bible, the Catholic Church, and the Protestant Churches allowed slavery. I'm not trying to judge the Founders by today's morality, I'm just saying that their views on slavery were consistent with Christianity, and the reason "today's morality" exists is because of the Enlightenment.
Augustine is an example of a Christian going against Christianity when he said slavery was wrong.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying all Christians were or are in favor of slavery. I'm saying slavery ended because of Enlightenment philosophy that Christians embraced despite their own religion's teachings.

You might look into the role of the Quakers in destroying slavery in America and find out why the earliest people working against the slave trade and colonial slavery in the UK were various kinds of Christian. It's seems to me that Christianity points out that capitalism is wrong in just the same way, but as with Roman imperialism, Christians have to live in an evil world: that's understood.

 

[StoneByStone]

You might look into the role of the Quakers in destroying slavery in America and find out why the earliest people working against the slave trade and colonial slavery in the UK were various kinds of Christian. It's seems to me that Christianity points out that capitalism is wrong in just the same way, but as with Roman imperialism, Christians have to live in an evil world: that's understood.

Again, the Christians who wanted to end slavery were defying their own religion. The Bible allows for slavery.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

Again, the Christians who wanted to end slavery were defying their own religion. The Bible allows for slavery.

'The Bible' is an anthology. Do you reckon Jesus was heavily into slavery? Which particular Enlightenment figure ever did anything for any slaves, and when? A typical anti-slavery man was Patrick Brunty, or Bronte, a perpetual curate whose daughters were typical Irish?Cornish creative persons.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
Again, the Christians who wanted to end slavery were defying their own religion. The Bible allows for slavery.
....
To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying all Christians were or are in favor of slavery. I'm saying slavery ended because of Enlightenment philosophy that Christians embraced despite their own religion's teachings.

people who have never read the book of Philemon should not pretend that they know what the Christian religion says about slavery.......

 

[StoneByStone]

'The Bible' is an anthology. Do you reckon Jesus was heavily into slavery? Which particular Enlightenment figure ever did anything for any slaves, and when? A typical anti-slavery man was Patrick Brunty, or Bronte, a perpetual curate whose daughters were typical Irish?Cornish creative persons.

Jesus probably wasn't heavily into slavery, since he didn't talk about it, but he was probably ok with it. Slavery was the norm among the Jews at the time, so if Jesus had a problem with it, he would have said so.
The Enlightenment figures were philosophers, not politicians who could have ended slavery. But their ideas influence later Westerns to end slavery both in and out of the West.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

Jesus probably wasn't heavily into slavery, since he didn't talk about it, but he was probably ok with it. Slavery was the norm among the Jews at the time, so if Jesus had a problem with it, he would have said so.
The Enlightenment figures were philosophers, not politicians who could have ended slavery. But their ideas influence later Westerns to end slavery both in and out of the West.

I can't see Jesus as 'into' slavery at all, because he saw people as of equal value. Like most sensible people, he talked about how to make the world he lived in better, because otherwise people go into hysteria, like American weirdoes when anyone tries to explain socialism. I don't see how you can have it both ways - Christian ideas led to the overthrow of slavery, and all the leaders of the movement were Christian. Since no enlightenment figure appears to have done anything for anyone, they don't seem to me very interesting as philosophers of the world. 'The point, however, is to change it'.

 

[StoneByStone]

I can't see Jesus as 'into' slavery at all, because he saw people as of equal value. Like most sensible people, he talked about how to make the world he lived in better, because otherwise people go into hysteria, like American weirdoes when anyone tries to explain socialism. I don't see how you can have it both ways - Christian ideas led to the overthrow of slavery, and all the leaders of the movement were Christian. Since no enlightenment figure appears to have done anything for anyone, they don't seem to me very interesting as philosophers of the world. 'The point, however, is to change it'.

Well if Jesus disagreed with slavery, he certainly kept his opinions to himself.
Christian ideas didn't lead to the overthrow of slavery because Christianity is pro-slavery. And when Europe has a Christian Theocracy, slavery was legal and common. It wasn't until after the Enlightenment that Christians began to go against their own religion to eliminate slavery.
Enlightenment philosophers did do a lot for people. They changed the culture in Europe that eventually lead to Democracy and Abolitionism.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

Well if Jesus disagreed with slavery, he certainly kept his opinions to himself.
Christian ideas didn't lead to the overthrow of slavery because Christianity is pro-slavery. And when Europe has a Christian Theocracy, slavery was legal and common. It wasn't until after the Enlightenment that Christians began to go against their own religion to eliminate slavery.
Enlightenment philosophers did do a lot for people. They changed the culture in Europe that eventually lead to Democracy and Abolitionism.

How much slavery and how many slaves did he come across? I can't see how you can read a single sentence uttered by Jesus and say he was pro-slavery. Quote, please. Christian ideas of human equality and the evil of power and wealth clearly led ultimately to the establishment of democracy and the elimination of slavery from where I'm standing, and I find it a bit baffling to understand why an intelligent person such as yourself should think otherwise. The waning caesarism of Rome found it convenient to pretend to be Christian and use it to defend their smelly system, just as certain Twentieth Century dictators pretended to be socialist to save capitalism, but what, really, has that got to do with what the original believers said and thought? I think you are confused by the American mass-movements that pretend to be Christian. I'm buggered if I can see what the Enlightenment did to achieve either, honestly I can't. I think it is just intellectual fashion. Think of some of Frederick the Great's Enlightened chums!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

How much slavery and how many slaves did he come across? I can't see how you can read a single sentence uttered by Jesus and say he was pro-slavery. Quote, please. Christian ideas of human equality and the evil of power and wealth clearly led ultimately to the establishment of democracy and the elimination of slavery from where I'm standing, and I find it a bit baffling to understand why an intelligent person such as yourself should think otherwise. The waning caesarism of Rome found it convenient to pretend to be Christian and use it to defend their smelly system, just as certain Twentieth Century dictators pretended to be socialist to save capitalism, but what, really, has that got to do with what the original believers said and thought? I think you are confused by the American mass-movements that pretend to be Christian. I'm buggered if I can see what the Enlightenment did to achieve either, honestly I can't. I think it is just intellectual fashion. Think of some of Frederick the Great's Enlightened chums!

Stone is cherry-picking the Bible like an Evangelical trying to repudiate homosexuality.

The fact remains all of human history is filled with sex, violence and slavery. The world of King David in 1000BC was brutal, but so was every other known human civilization on Earth. Anyone who singles out Christianity as the cause of these brutality is either ignorant or deliberately pushing a false narrative.

Christianity, like Buddhism, did push "living right", living in peace and treating one another as one would themselves. Of course an idea like that in a world of thugs, despots and murderers would see a lot of adherents end up as slaves or dead. The number of Christians executed by the Romans is epic, but not unusual in the history of mankind.

 

[StoneByStone]

How much slavery and how many slaves did he come across? I can't see how you can read a single sentence uttered by Jesus and say he was pro-slavery.

I already said that Jesus didn't talk about slavery. But why not? If slavery was the norm in his region, why didn't he speak against it?
Christians also try to say that Jesus wasn't homophobic because he didn't talk about gay people. Well, why not? Why didn't he speak out against homophobia, which was common among the Jews? Why didn't he say homosexuality isn't a sin?

Christian ideas of human equality and the evil of power and wealth clearly led ultimately to the establishment of democracy and the elimination of slavery from where I'm standing, and I find it a bit baffling to understand why an intelligent person such as yourself should think otherwise.

For two reasons.

One, Democracy and Abolitionism didn't become common in the West until after the Enlightenment. Whereas during the Middle Ages, when Europe was a Christian Theocracy, kingdoms and slavery were the norm.

Two, the Bible is pro-slavery and anti-democracy. Yes, it says both masters and slaves are equal in Heaven, but it also says that while on Earth, slaves should obey their masters.

I'm buggered if I can see what the Enlightenment did to achieve either, honestly I can't. I think it is just intellectual fashion. Think of some of Frederick the Great's Enlightened chums!

Well the intellectual movement changed the culture and made people want Democracy. Philosophy is what brings forth new politics and science.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

I already said that Jesus didn't talk about slavery. But why not? If slavery was the norm in his region, why didn't he speak against it?
Christians also try to say that Jesus wasn't homophobic because he didn't talk about gay people. Well, why not? Why didn't he speak out against homophobia, which was common among the Jews? Why didn't he say homosexuality isn't a sin?



For two reasons.

One, Democracy and Abolitionism didn't become common in the West until after the Enlightenment. Whereas during the Middle Ages, when Europe was a Christian Theocracy, kingdoms and slavery were the norm.

Two, the Bible is pro-slavery and anti-democracy. Yes, it says both masters and slaves are equal in Heaven, but it also says that while on Earth, slaves should obey their masters.



Well the intellectual movement changed the culture and made people want Democracy. Philosophy is what brings forth new politics and science.

Why, in other words, didn't Jesus live in the Twenty-First Century? I've said what I think about this kind of thinking above. Just read the baffled ranting of the Trumpers if I ever talk about what socialism meant to the original socialists to see what sort of reaction would have got from a time-machine. Stop talking about 'the Bible' from your own time machine and talk of specific statements made in particular sorts of society. As the economy makes things possible, ideas can be applied - it's as simple as that. The Levellers and the Diggers during our Civil War were not into Enlightenment - good Christians all - but it was they who worked for democracy and equality, as did the soldiers of the Peasants' Revolt ('When Adam delved and Eve span/Who was then the gentleman?'). Of course they didn't talk about slavery because the (Christian) Normans abolished it way back when.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

An old Unitarian Universalist sermon. Author unknown

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oEKRiaZxI5kmTlYw-pndmmbvcQ9jOdvmdaC93JGqiJE/edit?usp=sharing

....Jesus said. “You have heard it said, love your neighbor. But I tell you, love your enemies, be good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who hurt you.” “Love one another as I have loved you.”
Buddha said, ”See yourself in others, who then can you hurt.” “Hate never overcomes hate. Only love overcomes hate. Cultivate boundless love toward all beings.”

There is evidence that the teachings of Buddha, who probably was born around 560 BC influenced Jesus’ teachings. By 30 AD Buddhism had already gone east, met the Taoism of China and become Zen. Buddhist monks seemed to have wandered as far west as Alexandria Egypt by the time of Jesus. These mendicants may have influenced a whole wave of wandering philosophers including the the Cynics, the Stoics, as well as that little band around Jesus that later split into the Gnostics and the orthodox church.

Of course Christianity as we know it is strongly influenced by Paul who was steeped in ancient mystery religions and Greek philosophy. Some people even think Jesus never lived but was a vision of Paul as a kind of western Buddha ; it was later orthodox Christians who twisted the original teaching about Jesus into a powerful way to maintain control over the Roman Empire. I do think the original followers of Jesus were probably the Gnostics, for they taught that Jesus's resurrection was not literal but symbolized enlightenment. Buddha was actually canonized in the early church as Saint Barlaam. So Zen wisdom can be attributed to both Jesus and Buddha. Zen is everyday spirituality; It is living in the moment. It is being mindful, awake to Reality. Zen is religion stripped of false ritual and pretense. Enlightenment is seeing that the natural order of things is often just the opposite of what we normally think. Thus Zen wisdom is often called“crazy wisdom.” Conventional wisdom is if we follow the rules and obey laws and conventions the world will treat us fairly.

Conventional wisdom says you can bargain with God or society. But Jesus and Buddha will have none of that. Jesus always insisted that the “first shall be last.” He was a good Zen Master. Jesus subversively taught that who would save his life (by being proper and moral) will lose it. If you are nice in order to get into heaven then you don't deserve to get into heaven. And Buddha agrees. He said, “The fool who knows he is a fool is that much wiser.” ”The enlightened one is liberated by not clinging.” In other words you can’t be enlightened by trying to be enlightened. So Jesus and Buddha are my teachers, my Zen masters. That is why I often label myself a Zen Baptist.....

 

[Cypress]

But it's not misusing the Bible or Christian tradition when the Bible, the Catholic Church, and the Protestant Churches allowed slavery. I'm not trying to judge the Founders by today's morality, I'm just saying that their views on slavery were consistent with Christianity, and the reason "today's morality" exists is because of the Enlightenment.
Augustine is an example of a Christian going against Christianity when he said slavery was wrong.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying all Christians were or are in favor of slavery. I'm saying slavery ended because of Enlightenment philosophy that Christians embraced despite their own religion's teachings.

It is a form of bad historical analysis to compare people from the first century AD to your perspective of hindsight from the 21st century. Our hindsight was only given to us by two thousand years of intellectual and ethical development.

Slavery was universal in the 1st century.

Slavery in the bible is descriptive not prescriptive.

I don't think Jesus ever commanded anyone to go out and enslave people.

Descriptions of slavery in the Hebrew bible do not have much relevance to the new testament. Christians only care about the OT to the extent it prophesizes jesus or underscores his ethical teachings.

The most important Church father from early Christianity wrote that slavery is not God's intention, it results from sin.

Progressive Christians were at the forefront of slavery abolition.

All modern Christian denominations reject historical attempts by humans to enslave people in Christ's name.

It goes without saying that humans and their institutions did uncountable horrible things in the name of Christ.


Wrapping up, I am a huge admirer of Enlightenment thinkers" and have numerous posts about them to prove it. I have no vested interest in being a Christian partisan, I attend church maybe three times a year.

I only think it is important to be honest about the history and development of western civilization.

 

[StoneByStone]

It is a form of bad historical analysis to compare people from the first century AD to your perspective of hindsight from the 21st century. Our hindsight was only given to us by two thousand years of intellectual and ethical development.

Slavery was universal in the 1st century.

Slavery in the bible is descriptive not prescriptive.

I don't think Jesus ever commanded anyone to go out and enslave people.

Descriptions of slavery in the Hebrew bible do not have much relevance to the new testament. Christians only care about the OT to the extent it prophesizes jesus or underscores his ethical teachings.

The most important Church father from early Christianity wrote that slavery is not God's intention, it results from sin.

Progressive Christians were at the forefront of slavery abolition.

All modern Christian denominations reject historical attempts by humans to enslave people in Christ's name.

It goes without saying that humans and their institutions did uncountable horrible things in the name of Christ.


Wrapping up, I am a huge admirer of Enlightenment thinkers" and have numerous posts about them to prove it. I have no vested interest in being a Christian partisan, I attend church maybe three times a year.

I only think it is important to be honest about the history and development of western civilization.

But if Jesus was against slavery, and slavery was a norm in Jewish society at the time, why didn't he speak out against it? If he didn't mention this social norm, then at best he didn't care about it, at worst he was for it and didn't see a need to talk about it, since everyone else was already for it too.

The Hebrew Bible doesn't just describe slavery, it gives instructions on how to own and treat slaves.

Yes, modern Christian churches reject slavery, but that's just because the culture changed. The Catholic Church has notably changed drastically throughout the years to keep with the times. Church is a business. If slavery falls out of favor, the churches reject it.
For most of history, the Catholic Church taught that ONLY Catholics can go to Heaven. The current Pope, being a good business man, says that good Atheists can get to Heaven.

And yes, Progressive Christians fought against Conservative Christians to end slavery. But the key words there are "Progressive" and "Conservative." The Progressive Christians were moving away from Christianity and essentially mixing Christianity with Enlightenment ideas, while the Conservative Christians were trying to conserve traditional Christianity.
Look at society as being on a spectrum with Christianity on one side and Secular Democracy on the other. Since the Enlightenment, we've been slowly moving away from Christianity. We still have plenty of holdovers from the Middle Ages, but we have less and less with each generation.

 

[StoneByStone]

Why, in other words, didn't Jesus live in the Twenty-First Century?

Yes, Jesus was a product of his time. I'm not saying he was a horrible person for believing in slavery, I'm saying he was normal for his time.
However, that's beside the point. The point is that Jesus was fine with slavery and in no way fought against it. So he was not the guy who started the move away from slavery.

 

[Bill]

It seems to me that all human institutions are essentially about power, whereas any serious belief system or 'religion' is about the nature of reality and decent behaviour within it and what the two things might be. Alas, the two will inevitably overlap. Sometimes, fortunately, that overlap can be creative.

Yes, I think if we look back, as well as forward, it is usually the actualization of power, veiled in lies & illusions, benefiting mostly a select few.

 

[Cypress]

It seems to me that all human institutions are essentially about power, whereas any serious belief system or 'religion' is about the nature of reality and decent behaviour within it and what the two things might be. Alas, the two will inevitably overlap. Sometimes, fortunately, that overlap can be creative.

Concur.

Scientists abused the insights of theories of Relativity and atomic theory to create weapons of mass destruction and chemical weapons.

Southern plantation capitalists abused Christ's name to justify slavery.

Soviet communists abused the socialism of Engels and Marx to justify an oppressive totalitarian state based on terror.


It generally always comes down to humans and human institutions seeking power and justifying it by co-opting and twisting the compelling philosophical and intellectual achievements from our shared history

 

[Bill]

You might look into the role of the Quakers in destroying slavery in America and find out why the earliest people working against the slave trade and colonial slavery in the UK were various kinds of Christian. It's seems to me that Christianity points out that capitalism is wrong in just the same way, but as with Roman imperialism, Christians have to live in an evil world: that's understood.

Exactly Wilberforce & Wesley, not high church/s...

This conflict (slavery & serfdom), @ least IMHO has existed from long ago..

A drama or passion play of economics, power/politics & morality..

 

[Cypress]

But if Jesus was against slavery, and slavery was a norm in Jewish society at the time, why didn't he speak out against it? If he didn't mention this social norm, then at best he didn't care about it, at worst he was for it and didn't see a need to talk about it, since everyone else was already for it too.

The Hebrew Bible doesn't just describe slavery, it gives instructions on how to own and treat slaves.

Yes, modern Christian churches reject slavery, but that's just because the culture changed. The Catholic Church has notably changed drastically throughout the years to keep with the times. Church is a business. If slavery falls out of favor, the churches reject it.
For most of history, the Catholic Church taught that ONLY Catholics can go to Heaven. The current Pope, being a good business man, says that good Atheists can get to Heaven.

And yes, Progressive Christians fought against Conservative Christians to end slavery. But the key words there are "Progressive" and "Conservative." The Progressive Christians were moving away from Christianity and essentially mixing Christianity with Enlightenment ideas, while the Conservative Christians were trying to conserve traditional Christianity.
Look at society as being on a spectrum with Christianity on one side and Secular Democracy on the other. Since the Enlightenment, we've been slowly moving away from Christianity. We still have plenty of holdovers from the Middle Ages, but we have less and less with each generation.

I understand this is your opinion.

I have thought about this for years, and I think Christian ethics, philosophy, Christian individuality, and thought infuse our western society and myself personally in ways we don't even think about.

Even atheists and agnostics are imbued with it, if only through osmosis - even as they deny any linkage to Christian thought.

And that is why myself and almost all reputable scholars view Christian tradition, thought, and history as part of what makes us western civilization. Even as modern people we strive to honor plurality and diversity.

 

[Bill]

Yes, Jesus was a product of his time. I'm not saying he was a horrible person for believing in slavery, I'm saying he was normal for his time.
However, that's beside the point. The point is that Jesus was fine with slavery and in no way fought against it. So he was not the guy who started the move away from slavery.

Since he did not comment on it, are we filling in the blanks ourselves?

If I am wrong here, pls one of the experts correct me~

From my understanding, He didn't come here to fix the world as it was, but rather to prepare ppl & point them in the way of the one to come, His Kingdom, which was not of this world.....

I don't know why his teaching focused on some things & not others, but I would guess that if he was asked about slavery/serfdom it would be similar to his response about divorce & men being able to divorce/dismiss their wives w/out reason or cause~that was not how it was from the beginning/the design etc......