Just Go in and Sack them if they aren't...
- Thread starter Damocles
- Start date
The example you provided is an extreme. I can pull up extreme after extreme that talk about chritianity being the "enemy" and you are being disingenuous if you don't think I can. Pointing out that rubbish as actual "persecution" is exactly as I stated previously:
The exact same as Christians saying that they are persecuted!
Thank you for helping me prove my point.
I agree, BUT the constitution PROHIBITS the government from promoting CHRISTANITY! And I doubt you would find liberals promoting killing Christians.
Except it doesn't allow them to PROMOTE the others, in the example I provided they did just that. By taking out only the one they promote the other symbolism above Christianity....
Does this mean that christianity is actually persecuted? Don't... think.... so....
Just as the other doesn't mean that liberalism is actually persecuted in the colleges. Both are equally inane arguments to attempt to make.
Does this mean that christianity is actually persecuted? Don't... think.... so....
Just as the other doesn't mean that liberalism is actually persecuted in the colleges. Both are equally inane arguments to attempt to make.
Since you didn't provide a link, I had to do a little research.
If we're talking about the same thing, it was the Redlands city council. Not LA.
And it was due to a lawsuit brought by ACLU. Not by the city council. It was a constitional issue, they city knew they would lose. It was a separation of church and state issue, not "banning" christians from public life - that was your original assertion.
Rubbish, they could have fought it as a not so "liberal" council would. And, according to the story that I read, it was LA city council.
They easily would have won on the historical perspective instead they simply decided to take only the one "offending" item from the seal leaving other religious symbolism. It wasn't that there WAS religious symbolism, it was that there was CHRISTIAN symbolism...
Your example didn't "harrass" anybody either, it simply gave students rights to reject offensive assignments according to their belief system...
So, we are pretty much even there Cypress.
I guess I'll have to take your recollection of the events you refer to. No link has been provided.
I used your description of the events. And the knowledge that I have of the seal. You can research your own...
Either way, saying that either Christians or College Liberals are persecuted is equally undefendable. When over 80% of the nation claims to be Christian and when Liberals overwhelmingly run the campuses both claims have equal credibility.
Either way, saying that either Christians or College Liberals are persecuted is equally undefendable. When over 80% of the nation claims to be Christian and when Liberals overwhelmingly run the campuses both claims have equal credibility.
I provided a link to mainstream newspaper to back up my assertions.
I have no way of evaluating your version of events.
Yet you say you read an article on it... Amazingly that pretty much does for ya...
The seal includes Pagan symbols...
Notice how Christians complain:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sep_c_s6.htm
http://www.markdroberts.com/htmfiles/resources/crosscontroversy.htm
And the Jews informing of the Pagan symbolism as well:
http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=12430
A story on it from the UCLA Newspaper:
http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/articles.asp?id=29497
I can keep going and going, like the energizer bunny...
Also your story doesn't match your description of "harrassment" of professors. Totally doesn't match...
It speaks of giving rights to students to reject offensive assignements.
Its gotta be Redlands California Damo - not Los Angeles. I think you were mistaken there...perhaps because I think redlands is a suburb of LA:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE ISSUES:
DEBATE OVER THE REDLANDS, CA. LOGO
Quotations
- "Americans are being denied the right to express their religious speech in the public square." Ralph Reed, Christian Coalition.
bullet
-"There is no such source and cause of strife, quarrel, fights. malignant opposition, persecution, and war, and all evil in the state, as religion. Let it once enter our civil affairs, our government would soon be destroyed. Let it once enter our common schools, they would be destroyed." - Supreme Court of Wisconsin, Weiss v. District Board, 1890-MAR-18.
The debate:
The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) observes that "Cities often choose symbols on their seals to convey their local identity: palm trees, a well-known bridge, or some other identifier of civic pride." 1 A conflict with the principle of separation of church and state occurs when a city chooses a religious symbol to identify itself with Christianity or some other faith.
The ACLU writes that: "Occupying the lower right quadrant of the official seal of the City of Redlands was a levitating Latin cross shown glimmering above a picturesque church. The seal appears on city stationery, on fire fighters' patches, on police badges, on the door of the local library, and elsewhere." 1
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sep_c_s4.htm
OrnotBitwise
Watermelon
Yet you say you read an article on it... Amazingly that pretty much does for ya...
The seal includes Pagan symbols...
Notice how Christians complain:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sep_c_s6.htm
http://www.markdroberts.com/htmfiles/resources/crosscontroversy.htm
And the Jews informing of the Pagan symbolism as well:
http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=12430
A story on it from the UCLA Newspaper:
http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/articles.asp?id=29497
I can keep going and going, like the energizer bunny...
Don't forget the most telling observation in the first article you cite:
As Roberts correctly observes, it's all about how people perceive the symbolism on the seal, not how it's intended. He doesn't like that fact but tough titties: it remains a fact.
Personally, I find the "it's just an historical reference" argument to be very weak, at best. OTOH, I don't really care that much either. Yes, the inclusion of the cross irritates me, but only mildly.
I agree there is no wide-spread harrasement of professors.
Only the desire to harrass them, by elements of the extreme rightwing. Either through legislation (Arizona example) or through the rantings of some rightwind pundits.
Its not major problem. That wasn't my point. My point is that we have whackos on the right, who are hostile to academic freedom. Not to the extent that Iran is, but far more than I would like to see nonetheless.
Only the desire to harrass them, by elements of the extreme rightwing. Either through legislation (Arizona example) or through the rantings of some rightwind pundits.
Its not major problem. That wasn't my point. My point is that we have whackos on the right, who are hostile to academic freedom. Not to the extent that Iran is, but far more than I would like to see nonetheless.
Either way it was a fitting analogy that actually included legistlators making a decision to do one thing over another that included leaving pagan symbolism on the same seal they were removing Christian symbolism from that lawyers agreed would have been very Constitutional considering the historical context.
Therefore...
1. The idea that because of this Christians are actually persecuted is crazy...
2. The idea that Liberals are persecuted because one guy said he wanted students to be able to reject assignements that were objectionable is also ridiculous....
And your story actually supported my statement that AT MOST I had seen an "Affirmative Action" style thing going on to create a more even ideological place of education...
Therefore...
1. The idea that because of this Christians are actually persecuted is crazy...
2. The idea that Liberals are persecuted because one guy said he wanted students to be able to reject assignements that were objectionable is also ridiculous....
And your story actually supported my statement that AT MOST I had seen an "Affirmative Action" style thing going on to create a more even ideological place of education...
The City of Redlands Cross wasn't just put there for historical reasons. Evidently, city council meeting minutes from the 1950 - when the seal was adopted - explicity state that the Cross was put on the seal for religious reasons.
This was a matter of constitutional law. Intentionally promoting religion through the public sector is against the law. Preaching liberalism on a college campus is not. Huge difference.
This city of Redlads caved, because even Conservatives determined the ACLU had a nearly airtight case:
"...the Alliance Defense Fund, a conservative Christian organization that finances litigation to defend issues of 'religious liberty rights' and the protection of family values, did its own legal research and decided the City does not have a defensible case with the regard to the City logo with the cross."
"Minutes of a regular meeting of the City Council of the City of Redlands..." 2005-MAY-04, at: http://www.ci.redlands.ca.us/ **
This was a matter of constitutional law. Intentionally promoting religion through the public sector is against the law. Preaching liberalism on a college campus is not. Huge difference.
This city of Redlads caved, because even Conservatives determined the ACLU had a nearly airtight case:
"...the Alliance Defense Fund, a conservative Christian organization that finances litigation to defend issues of 'religious liberty rights' and the protection of family values, did its own legal research and decided the City does not have a defensible case with the regard to the City logo with the cross."
"Minutes of a regular meeting of the City Council of the City of Redlands..." 2005-MAY-04, at: http://www.ci.redlands.ca.us/ **
I posted an equal story from the other side from the UCLA campus even... And it wasn't Redlands it was LA County in that particular story... At least read my posts.
I'll link it here again for ya!
http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/articles.asp?id=29497
And as before... Pay attention to this particular paragraph:
"Though county attorneys felt the county would have a losing case if sued by the ACLU, UCLA law Professor Eugene Volokh said the cross on the county seal is constitutionally permissible when historical context is considered. "
I'll link it here again for ya!
http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/articles.asp?id=29497
And as before... Pay attention to this particular paragraph:
"Though county attorneys felt the county would have a losing case if sued by the ACLU, UCLA law Professor Eugene Volokh said the cross on the county seal is constitutionally permissible when historical context is considered. "