Liberals Perverted Science

Plants are a little different than humans, but technically speaking, once an acorn is planted and germinates, it is becomes a living organism known as a tree.

And some seeds germinate and quickly die because the seed is defective. It will never become a tree. It is missing vital "ingredients".

It's the same with human beings. Some fertilized cells will never become human beings because vital "ingredients" are missing.

Surely you can grasp that.
 
So...there is no magical cut off at the point of conception now?

It's the point of implantation?

Interesting concession there; certainly does change the debate...

nope, I'm simply pragmatic....I'm willing to let you kill children for five days in exchange for preventing you from killing them for the rest of the pregnancy.....I'm gambling that since you won't know the little buggers are there you won't get many of them.....
 
sm, as stringfield said, religion != society. also, israel, while not being completely jewish in the first place, has only been around for half a century, give or take. and the vatican can hardly be considered a society. its the headquarters of the catholic religion. nothing more.

the main point is that nowhere on earth can you find a nation/society of people that has any sort of influence/relations on the nations/societies around it that is even remotely close to what it was 4000, 2000, 1000 or even just 150 years ago.
Bullshit. Israels has recently been repopulated by its original inhabitants, and the Vatican is its own City-State. These two States also influence much larger groups- societies- within other States.

Another interesting fact is that States that governments who have opposed Israel have all eventually collapsed, starting with the Egyptians, then the Roman Empire.
 
stop displaying your confusion.....if you read my post you will see that I did NOT reject prokaryotes as life, I said they were at the threshold of life....I have had debates such as this with people who have tried to claim that virus were life and even some organic molecules....I was just setting the boundaries for the debate....
I'm not confused you just don't know what you're talking about. I don't care if you did say prokaryotes are on the threshold of life, you are wrong, they are not. Prokaryotes are living organisms.


my definition of hypothesis is a simple sentence....it has nothing to do with "interrelated phenomena"....stop trying to blather and debate....the parameters are in place.....
It certainly was a simple sentence. The only problem is you don't understand that simple sentence. You keep attempting to apply a hypothesis to explain a group of interrelated phenomena. That's not a hypothesis, that's a theory and your very words demonstrate you don't know the difference in this basic, fundamental and elementary aspect of the scientific method. How can you sit here and attempt to debate with me the testability of a scientific hypothesis when you have proven to even those with just a rudimentary education in science that you don't understand the difference between hypothesis and theory?
 
I'll try one more time. The fertilization may have been successful but sufficient "qualities" were missing resulting in the fertilized egg not continuing to grow.

You can try 50 million more times, you won't ever be able to change biological facts. It doesn't matter if the living organism wasn't able to grow, that does not define what it is! It doesn't matter what "qualities" it has, or how much "fucntion" it will ultimately obtain, those things have absolutely NOTHING to do with what it IS!

This is not all that difficult to understand. Unless you believe nature never makes a mistake there is always the possibility a fertilized cell is not a human being.

NO! There is not EVER that possibility!!!!! Once a human female egg is fertilized, it is no longer a human female egg, it is an independent living organism with unique DNA, a human life! It doesn't matter if nature makes a mistake, nature doesn't mistakenly cause a fertilized female egg to be anything other than human life.

We know children have been born with no arms or no brain so is it not possible there are fertilized cells that, if continued to grow, would produce children with no head or no chest or no abdomen?
The point is we do no know but logic dictates it is very possible because we have witnessed babies born who were missing parts.

Again, it DOES NOT MATTER what condition the human being produced is in, that doesn't change what is a human being! This is what you continue to attempt to do, and it DEFIES science and biological fact. Biology doesn't care if the human organism doesn't have arms, legs, brains, or abdomen, that is NOT what defines a human being.

Again, we do not know. All we know is that every human being had to start life by a cell being fertilized. That does not mean every fertilized cell is a human being.

Yes it does! It means EXACTLY that! The process of human life begins at conception! You have offered ZERO evidence it begins anywhere else! Do you fucking comprehend that???? YOU HAVE OFFERED ZERO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT ANY OTHER POSSIBILITY!! READ THAT AGAIN A FEW TIMES SO IT SOAKS IN!!! Now you can present these bird-brained idiotic assertions that don't make fucking sense, from now until the cows come home, I can't stop you. Just keep fucking repeating the same mindless nonsense over and over and over again, like the clueless idiot you are! You still haven't proven your point, or even offered ANY evidence to support your ludicrous position.

Every human being who is decapitated dies. That does not mean everyone who died was decapitated. Try to understand the difference. Educate yourself. A 10 year old can comprehend the difference.

*sigh* Every female egg that is fertilized by a male sperm, begins a human life. Every human life begins at point of conception. Not every life survives the process of living. You are the one who need to educate yourself, because most 10-year-olds comprehend when human life begins.

We don't know what it is. We will know when it is born.

Yes, we DO know what it is! There is never any question as to what it is or when it began being what it is! The event of being born is not what defines a human life. If you have some biological evidence to the contrary, this is where you need to present it, because thus far, all you've done is insist something that just isn't factual or based in anything scientific. You continue to draw parameters for the definition of human life, that do not apply.

Whether one wants to look at the Bible and the "breath of life" or refer to the old expression "don't count your chickens before they're hatched" or simply stroll through a graveyard or look at any official document the birth of an individual is considered the start of their life.

Now you are trying to define life by adages, and legal public records? Human life begins at point of conception, and you have presented NO evidence to the contrary. You can draw as many irrelevant analogies as you like, you can pretend that biology is uncertain, or that science can't answer, but that is false. Science has answered when human life begins. You continue to want to ignore that and apply your own criteria, how "viable" it is, or what "condition" it is in, or what "stage" it has obtained. These are not definitions of human life, they are conditions and phases. There is no scientific question about when life begins, it is when the conception of a male sperm and female egg take place.

It cheapens what it means to be a human being because we can not test the newly fertilized cell to determine if it has the necessary "ingredients" to consider it a human being. And we know many fertilized cells are missing "ingredients".

*sigh* Here we go with the "cheapen" thing again! There is no "newly fertilized cell" there is what used to be an unfertilized egg cell, which has been fertilized by a male sperm cell, and began the process of a unique multi-cell human life. There is no test we need to take, there is no further criteria or ingredients needed, it becomes a distinct human life at point of conception, and nothing in science or biology disputes this. Man doesn't have to "consider" it to be what it already is, according to science.

Some missing ingredients don't make a big difference. Some do make a big difference. Therefore, it's reasonable to conclude there are others that make such a huge difference as to disqualify them as human beings.

Again, you are attempting to establish criteria for determining if something qualifies to be what science has already determined it is. Whether all components are intact, if the organism is living, and the result of conception between a sperm and egg, it can be nothing other than human life. This is the ONLY reasonable conclusion, any other conclusion is ignorant of science and contradictory of biological fact.
 
Bullshit. Israels has recently been repopulated by its original inhabitants, and the Vatican is its own City-State. These two States also influence much larger groups- societies- within other States.

Another interesting fact is that States that governments who have opposed Israel have all eventually collapsed, starting with the Egyptians, then the Roman Empire.
Dude, you've just contradicted yourself. The "Roman" Catholic Church and the Vatican (which is in Rome I believe?) are the lineal descendants of the western Roman Empire.
 
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I'm not confused you just don't know what you're talking about. I don't care if you did say prokaryotes are on the threshold of life, you are wrong, they are not. Prokaryotes are living organisms.
I'm glad you're finally on board with that...after all, it's what I said in post #250 on the previous page....
first, all except the prokaryotes are irrelevant to the debate, since they are not "life"
now, may we continue?.....

It certainly was a simple sentence. The only problem is you don't understand that simple sentence. You keep attempting to apply a hypothesis to explain a group of interrelated phenomena. That's not a hypothesis, that's a theory and your very words demonstrate you don't know the difference in this basic, fundamental and elementary aspect of the scientific method. How can you sit here and attempt to debate with me the testability of a scientific hypothesis when you have proven to even those with just a rudimentary education in science that you don't understand the difference between hypothesis and theory?
quite simply, I do know what an hypothesis is...I provided the definition on page 4 of this thread, it should not be a surprise to you...here it is again

Quote:
For a hypothesis to be put forward as a scientific hypothesis, the scientific method requires that one can test it
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis[/ame]

your job here is not to adopt a meaningless posture of superiority, it is to debate.....
the challenge you have undertaken is to back up your claim that your list of twenty "hypothesis" on the origin of life are actually hypothesis......can we continue?.....
 
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I'm glad you're finally on board with that...after all, it's what I said in post #250 on the previous page....

now, may we continue?....
That you don't know what your talking about? Well that's pretty self evident.


quite simply, I do know what an hypothesis is...I provided the definition on page 4 of this thread, it should not be a surprise to you...here it is again

Quote:
For a hypothesis to be put forward as a scientific hypothesis, the scientific method requires that one can test it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis
Yes, quite simple isn't it? To bad you dont' understand it.

your job here is not to adopt a meaningless posture of superiority, it is to debate.....
the challenge you have undertaken is to back up your claim that your list of twenty "hypothesis" on the origin of life are actually hypothesis......can we continue?.....
How can you debate someone, like you, who doesn't even understand the topic? Please go do some studying and come back when you understand the topic and quite wasting my time.
 
Dude, you've just contradicted yourself. The "Roman" Catholic Church and the Vatican (which is in Rome I believe?) are the lineal descendants of the western Roman Empire.
Dude, if that's your argument, then it supports mine that only societies that embrace Judea-Christian traditions survive.
 
How can you debate someone, like you, who doesn't even understand the topic? Please go do some studying and come back when you understand the topic and quite wasting my time.

lol, I knew you would run.....it's becoming apparent you don't know jack shit about science and you're afraid people will notice.....you'd better ask Grind to replace your badge with one for Master Debate Avoider......or perhaps just change your avatar to Mott the Poser......
 
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No morality is based on "fact". It's all mind-created and cannot be objective. To say that science is against abortion is to say that science has something to say about something that's not objective, which is contrary to the nature of science.

1) I never said that 'morality' is based on fact

2) I stated that LIFE begins at CONCEPTION... that is scientific FACT

3) I did not state that Science is 'against abortion'. Science dictates when LIFE starts. Most pro-abortionists ignore that Science so that they can justify to themselves the 'right' to kill a child.
 
Hey, even though science can NEVER offer definitive proof for anything, according to you, in context, I have no problem agreeing that a stage of human life begins at the point of conception, that will inevitably lead to a fully formed human being if it is not interrupted.

But I will never agree that a clump of cells is a human being, with all the rights held by human beings. The life of the body that allows that clump of cells to become a human being will always take precedence; and I'm not just talking about life in terms of life or death, but in terms of it being her decision as to whether or not to carry it.

Eventually, YOUR argument always comes down to "she was askin' for it," and not about the clump of cells being a "life". Because you know what? If it was plausible to do from a biological perspective, and someone could come into your house in the middle of the night and implant an embryo without you knowing it, and it was determined that the only way that embryo could survive to term would be if you carried it, there is no way you would argue that the clump of cells that was suddenly in your body had more of a right to stay there than you had a right to decide to remove it....

1) We are all 'clumps of cells'. That argument is ridiculous. It is a human being as it is both human and alive. The second part of your argument is legitimate. Should the unborn child be entitled to human rights. You say no.

2) The last paragraph is pure nonsense. You attempt to project your beliefs on to others. to pretend you somehow 'know' what he would or would not do is moronic at best.
 
Sorry, Dix - science doesn't tell us that a zygote is a fully functional human being. That's why they use the term zygote.

And, according to you, science is only theorizing, anyway...

Again, the above is bullshit. You use the qualifier 'fully functional' as some sort of evidence that science doesn't show it is a human being. It is a human being. It is genetically human and it is alive. That is all that is required for it to be called a human being.

A 'Zygote' refers to a STAGE of the human (in this case) development.

There are a lot of human beings among us today that are not 'fully functional'. Would you take away their rights based on your 'fully functional' argument? Would you tell them they are no longer human beings?
 
The ol' "person in a vegetative" state analogy is such a poor strawman in this debate, but it is so often used.

We're talking about a clump of cells where brain function has not DEVELOPED yet. Not a larger clump of cells where it developed & was lost.

I don't expect you to see reason on this issue; I have seen you debate it enough...
 
Not a scientific issue. Can't be answered by science. It's a philosophical issue. When do rights adhere to the individual? When does life begin in the legal sense. No one accepts that life begins at conception. No one mourns the death of a fertilized egg that fails to implant.

BTW, every society (by which you seem to mean government) ever known to mankind has eventually failed, godless or not.

You are incorrect. Most people believe that life begins at conception. Whether we 'mourn' the death or not... it doesn't change the scientific evidence. 'Mourning' is an EMOTIONAL response. It has nothing to do with science.

But you are correct in that the rights and legal issues cannot be defined by science as they are moral issues and again subject to emotional responses.
 
I agree with you, both sides are often stupid. But there is an obvious reason why pro choicers will refuse to concede the point that human life begins at conception. Because those words are politically charged.

Why should they 'concede' that life begins at conception? That was his (and my) point. It DOES begin at conception. It is moronic to suggest otherwise.

As you stated, that doesn't mean anything when it comes to deciding whether abortion should be legal or not. Which is why I consistently try to get the pro-abortionists to move to the real discussion rather than arguing whether life begins at conception.
 
Sorry, Dix - science doesn't tell us that a zygote is a fully functional human being. That's why they use the term zygote.

And, according to you, science is only theorizing, anyway...
That's just silly. We use the term geriatric or infant to say what then?

It's just a different phase of the same life cycle.
 
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