LOL @ the UK

USN+USS+Wasp+LHD-1+File-Underway+Overhead.jpg


Here is the USS Wasp. We have about 8 ships of this size. These are our helicopter carriers. They are twice the size of the UK's "Invicible" class "aircraft carriers", and only slightly smaller than France's Charles de Gaulle, which is otherwise the largest and most advanced non-American carrier in the world.

This is a list of the largest ships in the world, until we reach the UK. The CATOBAR category refers to the presence of the special catapult equipment required to fly conventional aircraft, and these are really the only true aircraft carriers. STOBAR is middling, utilizing concepts from both CATOBAR and STOVL, but Russia's carrier is the only one that has a carrier using the system. It can fly light conventional aircraft. A STOVL carrier is a carrier that can only launch short takeoff or vertical lift aircraft. I confusingly made CATOBAR its own category just so that I would have an extra column of frowny faces to put next to almost all of the non-American countries.

CountryShip(s)
TypeTonnageNuclearpropulsionCATOBAR
USNimitz class x10
Aircraft Carrier
100,000:):)
USUSS Enterprise
Aircraft Carrier
93,000:):(
RussiaAdmiral Kuznetsov
STOBAR Carrier/Cruiser
55,000:(:(
FranceCharles de Gaule
Aircraft Carrier
42,000:):)
USWasp class x8
STOVL Carrier/AAS
41,000:(:(
USUSS Peleliu
STOVL Carrier/AAS
40,000:(:(
BrazilSão Paulo
Aircraft Carrier
32,800:(:)
IndiaINS Viraat
STOVL Carrier
28,700:(:(
ItalyCavourSTOVL Carrier
27,100:(:(
SpainJuan CarlosI
STOVL Carrier
27,000:(:(
PoorUK:(HMS Illustrious
STOVL Carrier
22,000:(:(
 
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USN+USS+Wasp+LHD-1+File-Underway+Overhead.jpg


Here is the USS Wasp. We have about 8 ships of this size. These are our helicopter carriers. They are twice the size of the UK's "Invicible" class "aircraft carriers", and only slightly smaller than France's Charles de Gaulle, which is otherwise the largest and most advanced non-American carrier in the world.

This is a list of the largest ships in the world, until we reach the UK. The CATOBAR category refers to the presence of the special catapult equipment required to fly conventional aircraft, and these are really the only true aircraft carriers. STOBAR is middling, utilizing concepts from both CATOBAR and STOVL, but Russia's carrier is the only one that has a carrier using the system. It can fly light conventional aircraft. A STOVL carrier is a carrier that can only launch short takeoff or vertical lift aircraft. I confusingly made CATOBAR its own category just so that I would have an extra column of frowny faces to put next to almost all of the non-American countries.

USNimitz class x10Aircraft Carrier100,000:):)
USUSS EnterpriseAircraft Carrier93,000:):(
RussiaAdmiral KuznetsovSTOBAR Carrier/Cruiser55,000:(:(
FranceCharles de GauleAircraft Carrier42,000:):)
USWasp class x8STOVL Carrier/AAS41,000:(:(
USUSS PeleliuSTOVL Carrier/AAS40,000:(:(
BrazilSão PauloAircraft Carrier32,800:(:)
IndiaINS ViraatSTOVL Carrier28,700:(:(
ItalyCavourSTOVL Carrier27,100:(:(
SpainJuan Carlos ISTOVL Carrier27,000:(:(
Poor UK :(HMS IllustriousSTOVL Carrier22,000:(:(

One reason which you haven't addressed is that ships like Ark Royal were not flat beds but ramped carriers hence did not have to be so big, or as long, as other more conventional vessels.

I must admit it is amusing to see you going through the various stages of being a student, I guess you must be in the oh shit I need to get a job phase.
 
One reason which you haven't addressed is that ships like Ark Royal were not flat beds but ramped carriers hence did not have to be so big, or as long, as other more conventional vessels.

I must admit it is amusing to see you going through the various stages of being a student, I guess you must be in the oh shit I need to get a job phase.

The Ark Royal (current incarnation, you've had 3 or 4 prior) also launched harriers, not full size aircraft.
 
One reason which you haven't addressed is that ships like Ark Royal were not flat beds but ramped carriers hence did not have to be so big, or as long, as other more conventional vessels.

The ramp is something that small aircraft carriers use to make up for their size. It's still a STOVL carrier, and can't launch conventional aircraft.

The Queen Elizabeth AC's, though, are pretty sweet, and will put the UK second to the US again when it comes to capital ships. They do lack nuclear propulsion, but they have a range of 10,000 miles anyway (nuclear is basically unlimited, but a nuclear reactor costs much more than several decades of fuel). And they will use CATOBAR, so the UK has actually decided to order the F-35C's instead of the STOVL F-35B's. Hopefully, if the Conservatives (and their lackeys, who will go unnamed) lose in 2015, the UK will even keep the second one.

Carriers aren't everything when it comes to a navy either, and it's not like the Spanish, Italian, or Brazillian navies come close the UK. On wikipedia, it mentions that the UK spent a long time during the cold war specializing as an anti-submarine force against the Soviet Union, so it's likely they just decided to devote resources there instead of the flashy carriers. The United States had enough carriers anyway, and the Soviet Union largely ignored them (they didn't build any until the 80's), so the UK likely simply had different practical strategic concerns. Now tha the Cold War is over, they're turning back to more traditional blue water naval concerns.

Here's what the Queen Elizabeth's will look like:

QE_class_carrier.jpg


Also, the previous picture of the Charles de Gaulle was very flattering, and I posted it mainly to troll. Here's it next to a Nimitz-class carrier:

PA-CdG_Eisenhower-s.jpg


I must admit it is amusing to see you going through the various stages of being a student, I guess you must be in the oh shit I need to get a job phase.

successful-troll-is-successful.jpg
 
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The ramp is something that small aircraft carriers use to make up for their size. It's still a STOVL carrier, and can't launch conventional aircraft.

The Queen Elizabeth AC's, though, are pretty sweet, and will put the UK second to the US again when it comes to capital ships. They do lack nuclear propulsion, but they have a range of 10,000 miles anyway (nuclear is basically unlimited, but a nuclear reactor costs much more than several decades of fuel). And they will use CATOBAR, so the UK has actually decided to order the F-35C's instead of the STOVL F-35B's. Hopefully, if the Conservatives (and their lackeys, who will go unnamed) lose in 2015, the UK will even keep the second one. Carriers aren't everything when it comes to a navy either, and it's not like the Spanish, Italian, or Brazillian navies come close the UK.
The Brazilians certainly could. They've gone through a pretty big modernization program with their navy.
 
Exactly which is the decision to sell them to the US Navy is just so fucking crazy!!

It's cheaper for us to buy them as a stand in for our naval harriers and WAIT for the JSF (lulz) than to either keep using our older harriers or buy brand new ones.
 
The Brazilians certainly could. They've gone through a pretty big modernization program with their navy.

Well, I was talking out of my ass. On the list, it looked like their were a few nations who were operating carriers that they bought from some stronger country as a purple patch on a navy that honestly wasn't that great, and I merely assumed that Brazil was one of those countries, although it is the best carrier after the French and US ones (some others are bigger, sure, but they don't have CATOBAR, as they're primarily intended for other purposes and aren't pure carriers). Thailand, bizarrely enough, has a carrier that was operational for about two years and now operates mostly as a disaster relief platform. Admittedly, I did not do an in-depth look into the Brazillian navy. They do have a huge coastline , huge population (5th in the world), a decent total economy (almost the size of the UK's), and aren't exactly impoverished (by worldwide standards), so I guess it would make sense.
 
Well, I was talking out of my ass. On the list, it looked like their were a few nations who were operating carriers that they bought from some stronger country as a purple patch on a navy that honestly wasn't that great, and I merely assumed that Brazil was one of those countries, although it is the best carrier after the French and US ones (some others are bigger, sure, but they don't have CATOBAR, as they're primarily intended for other purposes and aren't pure carriers). Thailand, bizarrely enough, has a carrier that was operational for about two years and now operates mostly as a disaster relief platform. Admittedly, I did not do an in-depth look into the Brazillian navy. They do have a huge coastline , huge population (5th in the world), a decent total economy (almost the size of the UK's), and aren't exactly impoverished (by worldwide standards), so I guess it would make sense.

Thailand maintains the carrier mostly because it's owned by their royal family. In terms of actual need/use, they have no real purpose for it. Maybe to keep Indonesia under control.

Brazil however, is a growing nation, and looking to expand its role internationally. And a good strong navy is historically the way to do so. England, like the rest of Europe (except France somewhat) hasn't had to deal with defense issues like you stated earlier. They've developed generational atrophy toward military strength.
 
Exactly which is the decision to sell them to the US Navy is just so fucking crazy!!

That's austerity for you. I suppose it's not likely you'll have military engagements in between now and the commissioning of the Queen Elizabeth supercarriers/completion of the JSF program. However, Argentina might get uppity about the Falklands.
 
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That's austerity for you. I suppose it's not likely you'll have military engagements in between now and the commissioning of the Queen Elizabeth supercarriers and completion of the JSF program. However, Argentina might get uppity about the Falklands.

It'd be the best time for them. And the UK doesn't have anyone to help out (sorry Tom, but you know America won't).
 
It'd be the best time for them. And the UK doesn't have anyone to help out (sorry Tom, but you know America won't).

We know that perfectly well and, by the way, it is a myth that Reagan's admin was all fired up to help the UK. This time we have it covered, the Argies are nowhere near as militarily prepared as they were in 1982 but we now have a permanent presence on the Falklands and in the surrounding seas. The runway at Port Stanley is long enough to accept most military planes including a C5 Galaxy and Hercules.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/299769/20120216/falklands-britain-argentina-war-defence.htm

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/299769/20120216/falklands-britain-argentina-war-defence.htm
 
We know that perfectly well and, by the way, it is a myth that Reagan's admin was all fired up to help the UK. This time we have it covered, the Argies are nowhere near as militarily prepared as they were in 1982 but we now have a permanent presence on the Falklands and in the surrounding seas. The runway at Port Stanley is long enough to accept most military planes including a C5 Galaxy and Hercules.



http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/299769/20120216/falklands-britain-argentina-war-defence.htm

That military presence isn't all that substantive Tom. It's mostly admin and logistical workers. I think they're gonna make the move.
 
That military presence isn't all that substantive Tom. It's mostly admin and logistical workers. I think they're gonna make the move.

"At present, neither Argentina or the UK necessarily has the stomach for tensions to escalate into armed conflict," Ince told International Business Times UK.

The latest resurrection of tensions is just politicking by Argentina's president, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, as she tries to "ensure she maintains a political grip over Argentina", he said.
"It is all political rhetoric."
There is not a comparative military situation on the Falkland Islands to 1982.
"The islands themselves are very well defended with Mount Pleasant, the airbase there," Ince said.
"They have surface-to-air missiles, they have four Typhoons [fighter jets] - the comparison is very difficult to make because the orientation of our armed forces are now completely different to before.
In addition to the islands being well defended, Ince said it is unlikely that Argentina would be able to recapture them.
 
Yeah, 4 fighter jets and about 2,000 persons isn't a very intimidating force Tom. If they want the islands, they can take them.
 
Thailand maintains the carrier mostly because it's owned by their royal family. In terms of actual need/use, they have no real purpose for it. Maybe to keep Indonesia under control.

Brazil however, is a growing nation, and looking to expand its role internationally.

Brazil is basically like a smaller version of China or India. They can maybe get close to the United States in power over the long term, but unlike the other two, they don't really have the capability of eclipsing us (barring some huge depopulation or economic collapse on our part).

And a good strong navy is historically the way to do so. England, like the rest of Europe (except France somewhat) hasn't had to deal with defense issues like you stated earlier. They've developed generational atrophy toward military strength.

Well, at first it was good, as a militaristically weak and pacifistic Europe is certainly preferable to what we saw at the beginning of the century. They basically fought themselves into half a century of war exhaustion. However, the ideal would be a Europe that's both peaceful and strong, committed to its own collective defense instead of collective destruction. For one thing, the western world is going to have to spend a lot of time making up for its past. If it becomes militarily weak during this period, I assure you, when injustices are done to us, people will say "Ah, they're getting what's coming to them!" It is maybe unfair that we carry the burden for the sins of our fathers, but that is the way the world works. We are acceptable targets. And when we are weak acceptable targets, we won't even be able to do anything about it.

The problem is that, while collectively it is a powerful bloc, well, if any individual country spends its ass off on the military, they're not going to really even make much of a dent. It's honestly perfectly understandable. If the Soviet Union comes rolling through Europe, they're going to roll right along no matter what Poland spends on their military. Why even bother? Times are hard, as they often are, and people are suffering. And even if they did all spend a decent amount, their division doesn't make for an effective force. They needlessly duplicate effort, and only a few countries are big enough to even consider working on the big superweapons that could really make a difference. If every state had to make it's own military, we wouldn't have 11 supercarriers either. California and Texas would maybe have a medium sized carrier, and no one else would even try.

That's why, ideally, the EU needs to move to a more federal structure. I realize, of course, that this is a wild, naive dream. I myself am often rather annoyed seeing Americans on reddit and such looking at the European debt crisis and saying, well, Europe obviously just needs to unite, as if it's the easiest and most sensible thing in the world. In America, we all speak one primary language, and we do have a unified culture of sorts and a shared history. In Europe, I suppose the best you can do is to have a lingua franca like English, and to point to some broader post-Christian, Greco-Roman culture. But that's obviously weaker than what you have in the US, and will be weaker for a long time. And those weaknesses flare out every time things get a little tough, with everyone pulling out old resentments and threatening to secede (this is, indeed, what you see in Europe right now, and what you saw frequently in the early American republic and even still today somewhat). You also sort of have the problem that support for the military is usually tied to nationalism, and nationalism directly impedes such a goal. So, Germany is pro-europe and anti-militaristic (I suppose it's easier to be "European" than "the Hitler people"), while France is more anti-europe and more militaristic.

The UK is particularly tough, because it has the same nationalism as France as well as close ties to America and the Commonwealth that often divide its loylaties with Europe. If there is ever a majority in the UK for such a measure, it will be a future generation that's way different from their parents. The British honestly by themselves hugely complicate things, as it's practically impossible to get them on board and difficult to get them out of the picture. Tthey will hugely slow down a one-speed europe, and a two speed europe would weaken the whole structure, with countries constantly pulling out to the first speed when things get tough. It's like secession-lite. Rhode Island would've never signed the constitution, and plenty of other states would be jostling to pull back everytime a president they didn't like was elected (or for some other stupid reason), if it were a choice between the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution, instead of between being a different country and the Constitution. That's too bad as well, because the UK would make a significant contribution. Just going by population, a Europe without the UK would be like America without Texas and California.

But if you could accomplish the goal of a united Europe in some form, the two of us together could easily balance rising Chinese power for the forseeable future. With a dedication of 4%-5% of their GDP to the military, it could easily match ours in a generation or so. Europe would have 11 supercarriers and 9 SVTOL carriers, instead of one moderate size carrier and a handful of SVTOL carriers. It would be better for the US as well, as they could be a moderating influence on some of our less wise military adventurism if they weren't so easily ignorable. As it is, it's too easy for Americans to unwisely get it in their head that, since we're funding this whole thing anyway, we may as well go it alone. But a europe that is able to contribute just as much is a europe that's going to have much more say, an equal partner instead of a tag along.
 
There is also a nuclear sub on almost permanent standby, as well as reinforcements from Ascension Island in less than eight hours.

I seriously doubt that the UK is going to use nuclear weapons. Pretty much the only acceptable use of nuclear weapons is 1) In reaction to the use of nuclear weapons and 2) By precedent, to end a total war. It's never be established that it's OK to use them to solve a minor territorial squabble that your conventional forces are too weak to solve alone.
 
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