MBL: Pokerhand.

B

BRUTALITOPS

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Beefy, let me know what you think:

I'm doing this from memory so I don't have all information on stack sizes for everyone at the table.


Seven HANDED (10 Person SNG) AVG Chipstack about 4k
This is a live game.

Seat 1: OUT
Seat 2: Otherdude (700)
Seat 3: OUT
Seat 4: X1
Seat 5: X2
Seat 6: HERO (4kish) <--- ME
Seat 7: OUT
Seat 8: X3
Seat 9: X4
Seat 10: Villain (7kish)
X4 posts the small blind of 400
VILLAIN posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [As Jd]
Other Dude Moves All in for 700
X1 Folds
X2 Folds
Hero raises to 1600
x3 Folds
x4 Folds
Villain Calls 800
*** FLOP *** [Ac Kc 8d]
Villain Insta-shoves ALL IN


HERO?

A few notes before coming to a conclusion:

1) This is a extremely short-stacked SNG, that starts you off 30 BB. So though at this point in the game no one is really above 10BB, the play is still fairly tight-ish more or less because everyone else at the table is in the same situation. I know it's kinda hard to get a feel for it but you are going to have to trust me that this is a very strong move.

2) Villain from my perception seems to have a weak-tight image. Multiple times He had AK, AQ, and did not raise with said hands even in position, and when the flop missed he checked it down against a single opponent. This happened about 3 times. He hasn't been in many pots and got his chips early on by being in a multi-way pot and doubling up.

3) My Image is probably a little loose, I had a hand a few back where I limped with 97s on the button, flop was T 4 T. Checked to me HU. I check behind. Turn: 4. I throw out a half pot stab bet and get called. River: 7. Opponent had Ace High. Other than that though my raises have been pretty solid, but I haven't shown down many hands.

4) One last thing: Pre flop before the cards came out I knew villain was putting chips in. He was looking down at his chips and getting them ready. Seems as though he had his mind made up.

What do you think is the correct play mbl? I'll let you know what happened after you answer
 
Grind said:
Beefy, let me know what you think:

I'm doing this from memory so I don't have all information on stack sizes for everyone at the table.


Seven HANDED (10 Person SNG) AVG Chipstack about 4k
This is a live game.

Seat 1: OUT
Seat 2: Otherdude (700)
Seat 3: OUT
Seat 4: X1
Seat 5: X2
Seat 6: HERO (4kish) <--- ME
Seat 7: OUT
Seat 8: X3
Seat 9: X4
Seat 10: Villain (7kish)
X4 posts the small blind of 400
VILLAIN posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [As Jd]
Other Dude Moves All in for 700
X1 Folds
X2 Folds
Hero raises to 1600
x3 Folds
x4 Folds
Villain Calls 800
*** FLOP *** [Ac Kc 8d]
Villain Insta-shoves ALL IN


HERO?

A few notes before coming to a conclusion:

1) This is a extremely short-stacked SNG, that starts you off 30 BB. So though at this point in the game no one is really above 10BB, the play is still fairly tight-ish more or less because everyone else at the table is in the same situation. I know it's kinda hard to get a feel for it but you are going to have to trust me that this is a very strong move.

2) Villain from my perception seems to have a weak-tight image. Multiple times He had AK, AQ, and did not raise with said hands even in position, and when the flop missed he checked it down against a single opponent. This happened about 3 times. He hasn't been in many pots and got his chips early on by being in a multi-way pot and doubling up.

3) My Image is probably a little loose, I had a hand a few back where I limped with 97s on the button, flop was T 4 T. Checked to me HU. I check behind. Turn: 4. I throw out a half pot stab bet and get called. River: 7. Opponent had Ace High. Other than that though my raises have been pretty solid, but I haven't shown down many hands.

4) One last thing: Pre flop before the cards came out I knew villain was putting chips in. He was looking down at his chips and getting them ready. Seems as though he had his mind made up.

What do you think is the correct play mbl? I'll let you know what happened after you answer
Click to expand...

Okay, cool. I'm glad you gave the post scripts there instead of simply the hand history. Give me a minute.
 
Beefy said:
Okay, cool. I'm glad you gave the post scripts there instead of simply the hand history. Give me a minute.
Click to expand...

Wait a minute. Where was the button? It looks like Villian had the button in which case he couldn't not hve insta moved after the flop because you would have been first to act.

Please clarify.
 
Even so, if the Villain was first to act, and he'd soft played strong, but not connected hands before, I would have to conclude that he has a set, a smaller pocket pair, or he has you outkicked. He beats you 2 out of three. If I'm you though, I probably call slightly more than half the time due to the pot, and due to the fact that you're crippled against him if you lose either way. But its not a certainty to do it either way. You have to have the table feel to swing it.
 
Also let me clarify that I feel if I fold I still have plenty of chips to play with. You really have to throw Harrington's M factor out of the window with these sngs.... the play is just different.. you gotta trust me on this... online or major tournaments if I was less than 10bb I would be shoving with this hand preflop... it's just not how the play goes at this place though.
 
Grind said:
Im Cutoff. Villain is BB.
Click to expand...

OK

Grind said:
Also let me clarify that I feel if I fold I still have plenty of chips to play with. You really have to throw Harrington's M factor out of the window with these sngs.... the play is just different.. you gotta trust me on this... online or major tournaments if I was less than 10bb I would be shoving with this hand preflop... it's just not how the play goes at this place though.
Click to expand...

Well, you have 2400 hundred left if you fold. And that puts the Villain at just over 9K It leaves you at nearly a 4-1 underdog, so you have to put that against your hand. I think you make the call, most of the time.

But tell me what happened.
 
Actually... I don't know if this changes things but i might have been 5500 and I had 4k behind after my raise :X

change your mind yet?
 
Grind said:
Actually... I don't know if this changes things but i might have been 5500 and I had 4k behind after my raise :X

change your mind yet?
Click to expand...

My instinct, in that scenario, would tell me that I am beat at that point, most likely, but also most likely not crushed at that point. And yes, it does change it if you add the 1500 chips in. You're more safe to retreat with that. Being left with 2400 is a near disaster, being left with 4K is not. It recalbrates the decision.
 
I folded. I was so certain that because this guy was so tight, so weak with how he played other flops, and how quickly he shoved, that I was beat.

I'm not the type of player to assume the worst... but I thought I had a good read on this guy, especially when I almost knew preflop right after he called he was putting in money before the cards even came that he had something big.

Anyway he had J5o. Not even a backdoor flush draw. Total air. The end.
 
2 Friends currently agree with me. 1 Disagrees. Ironically the 2 that agree with me have played where I played. A lot of people have a hard time understanding how i would be fine with only 5BB's but im telling you it's just a different play and method there.
 
Grind said:
I folded. I was so certain that because this guy was so tight, so weak with how he played other flops, and how quickly he shoved, that I was beat.
Click to expand...

The perception of course is that your beat. But the question is how bad your beat. Are you drawing pretty live, or are you a dead man?

I'm not the type of player to assume the worst... but I thought I had a good read on this guy, especially when I almost knew preflop right after he called he was putting in money before the cards even came that he had something big.
Click to expand...

This is why table image can be huge. The guy outplayed you with his j5o. You have to give him some credit. That's what makes this so appealing to other atheletes. You are probably a better player than him, but he can still throw a spitball and cause you to make the wrong decision.

Anyway he had J5o. Not even a backdoor flush draw. Total air. The end.
Click to expand...

Well, he did have a back door straight draw anyway. But you weren't wrong either way. I probably would have called based on the info, but for the wrong reasons.
 
Grind said:
I still won it though so whatevs.
Click to expand...

Well, you play well, that's all you can do. Sometimes you make the wrong decision, even Brunson, Greenstein, Negranu, Farha, Harmon, Lederer.... They all do, but they make the right decisions most of the time. And in low limit shit like you and I play, its a pretty big advantage.
 
oh yeah I was like "nice bluff dude" and I meant it. it was a great play. (actually I think he was a moron, he's risking his entire stack and he's already seen me make some big bets and in his mind he should be thinking im capable of calling something like that)

Looking back on it, I think the fact that he made up his mind before the flop to make a big bet should have clued me in to something that was going on... here is a guy that when he misses a flop is checking all the way to a river... and now he has his mind made up pre flop before he even sees the texture that he's shoving? In this case he either has a strong pocket pair or air. Turns out he had air.

Regardless I felted him about 5 hands latter when I flopped a set to his top pair.
 
Grind said:
oh yeah I was like "nice bluff dude" and I meant it. it was a great play. (actually I think he was a moron, he's risking his entire stack and he's already seen me make some big bets and in his mind he should be thinking im capable of calling something like that)

Looking back on it, I think the fact that he made up his mind before the flop to make a big bet should have clued me in to something that was going on... here is a guy that when he misses a flop is checking all the way to a river... and now he has his mind made up pre flop before he even sees the texture that he's shoving? In this case he either has a strong pocket pair or air. Turns out he had air.

Regardless I felted him about 5 hands latter when I flopped a set to his top pair.
Click to expand...

He made a good play. Given the information you had, you had to conclude you were beat. But that still doesn't mean an automatic fold. You chose to fold, which in the short run wasn't the correct play in terms of beating him, but in the long term was the correct play.

And if he's a weak player, (I meant to address this earlier) and you fold, you can outplay him exactly as you did.
 
yes that's what I was thinking mbl. I was thinking.. why would I put all my chips in when I can outplay this guy at multiple opportunities, to me it just wasn't worth the risk, another reason why I folded.
 
Grind said:
yes that's what I was thinking mbl. I was thinking.. why would I put all my chips in when I can outplay this guy at multiple opportunities, to me it just wasn't worth the risk, another reason why I folded.
Click to expand...
And that is exactly why I say it wasn't the wrong play. The risk factor comes in. If a weak player comes in for an all in bet, then you can say to yourself "not the right time to risk it all". You did that, you won.

But it doesn't make anything absolute. Dig what I'm saying?
 
The risk factor comes in. If a weak player comes in for an all in bet, then you can say to yourself "not the right time to risk it all".
Click to expand...

This is why farha folded to moneymakers bluff of the century in 2002.
 
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