McCain: Stupid, Insensitive or Evil?

Damocles said:
Pretend that we get "none of the bad news" from the war all you want, but it isn't true.

You can get constant graphic images as well as photos of the coffins returning, pretending that you cannot is unrealistic. That you must seek them out is a better rather than something worse. That they are unavailable is simply lying to yourself.

So far you have presented nothing to prove that I cannot get the same information, and definitely more, than was provided during Nam. You still have yet to convince me that the media is somehow underreporting such things at this time. You want the homogenized "see exactly the same images" government-approved media that was here before the un-"Fairness Doctrine" was rightly done away with. I disagree vehemently. I don't want the government to approve of my media access. I don't want to only get the images that they deem "fair". I don't want opinion limited to the "two" different opinions on every show that "must" be represented to the detriment of any other opinion outside the scope of this limitation. I don't want my media to be limited to only give editorialization on the "two" approved party's platforms.

Seriously, I don't want the limitation that this puts on media, because I will get LESS, FAR LESS, than I currently can view.

I want none of that to return because I have far more now than ever before.
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Your getting that from the internet Damo, not from the MSM.
 
uscitizen said:
Pretend that we get "none of the bad news" from the war all you want, but it isn't true.
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Spin just spin, I never implied or said that Damo. You are also trying to compare web sources to the mainstream news media. Not a reasonable thing to do considering most still get their news from the networks.
ABC, CNN, FOX, etc....

but it can be a useful view if you want to ignore the facts.

I was there during Nam and I am here now....

You would have lots better odds of convincing me of the existance of God than to convince me the coverage of Iraq is anything like it was during Nam.
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And you would have the same to attempt to convince me that I have less than I had then.

It isn't spin. I remember the media when I could change to any channel whatsoever and get the exact same story at the same time. I remember that the POVs were limited to the two major party's POVs by that same government-approved "fairness".

A return to the fairness doctrine is a limitation I will never welcome, regardless of your insistence that I somehow get less news during the information age than I did back then. When many differing opinions are represented on different channels of the TV and radio... When all these things are reality. You attempt to convince me that the sky is green when I have never been color blind.
 
Damo how many dead, bloody, maimed US soldiers have you seen on mainstream media ? How many dead bodies coming home ? body bags being loaded into hueys ? Come on now guy get real.

Numbers and statistics are one thing but blood and gore is another.
How popular would Freddy Kruger movies be without blood and gore. If they just flashed on the screen Freddy killed 3 more, but did not show the act ?
 
uscitizen said:
Damo how many dead, bloody, maimed US soldiers have you seen on mainstream media ? How many dead bodies coming home ? body bags being loaded into hueys ? Come on now guy get real.

Numbers and statistics are one thing but blood and gore is another.
How popular would Freddy Kruger movies be without blood and gore. If they just flashed on the screen Freddy killed 3 more, but did not show the act ?
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Once again. What I value is the fact that I can choose to get those if I want them rather than have them specifically "fariness-doctrined" onto my screen in a mass of exactly the same sources of media. I prefer the way it is now to the news by numbers approach of the past where no matter what channel you were watching you could change and interrupt the middle of the exact same story being passed at another.

Seriously. If you think this information is hidden from you then you haven't been paying any attention at all. I have FAR more access to far more information now than ever before, and it isn't because the "fairness doctrine" limits opinions to the major two party's opinions that I can get that information, in fact it is exactly the opposite.
 
The masses do not access all the other information. How else would Bush have gotten elected twice ?

I am speaking of the masses Damo, not you.
you are not representative of the masses, you are far better informed.
 
uscitizen said:
The masses do not access all the other information. How else would Bush have gotten elected twice ?

I am speaking of the masses Damo, not you.
you are not representative of the masses, you are far better informed.
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We don't need the censorship of the fairness doctrine. It's not happening.

The masses don't vote.
 
uscitizen said:
If the ignorant masses do not vote AHZ, how did Bush get elected ? TWICE!
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I will again mention that the offering from the Ds was less than pleasing as well. His plan was, "What he's doing, only with 10K more soldiers!" I mean please. If all we are getting is the same plan, what was the reason to change?
 
Uscitizen is 100% CORRECT.....

The coverage of this war IS NOT EVEN CLOSE to the coverage of Vietnam...guts all over the place on the media and in the papers, the enemy deaths were also reported on daily, the news media over there was INFORCE and many media people became famous later from their brave coverages of the war....the soldiers were shown being flown home in their coffins and shown when they arrived in their coffins, the funerals were shown of these fine soldiers...the mamed that returned home were shown....it was incredible coverage with human interest stories galore too... (And that is just what we "got" from the news, who even knows what we missed)

but it was EVIDENT, to all of us in America, that we were at war...there was no SECOND that passed in a day that we as a country did not know we were in a War...and a bloody one at that....

This is what Americans did... REVOLTED and demanded that we get out of vietnam.... it was not Congress on their own, the American people willed it!

They viewed 50,000 plus coffins on the news being brought home over the years and they HAD ENOUGH.....and it was time to say, enough is enough!


So they did. Though it took a couple of years from this initial revolt to happen...if memory serves...

Care
 
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Damocles said:
I will again mention that the offering from the Ds was less than pleasing as well. His plan was, "What he's doing, only with 10K more soldiers!" I mean please. If all we are getting is the same plan, what was the reason to change?
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Blame it on the Dems ? sigh....
 
uscitizen said:
Blame it on the Dems ? sigh....
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I don't "blame it on the Dems", that is a serious logical fallacy.

Had he had a truly better plan to get out of the war he likely would have won. Instead he had the exact same plan, poorly offered, with the added 10K. I try to look realistically at it. I didn't vote for the guy a second time. Many did, and ignoring what is offered from both sides of the argument at the time of election is pretending either to foreknowledge, or superiority.

Were I a D I'd be happy he won. His presense as a branch of government will give you all superior election results for some time to come.
 
Damocles said:
I don't "blame it on the Dems", that is a serious logical fallacy.

Had he had a truly better plan to get out of the war he likely would have won. Instead he had the exact same plan, poorly offered, with the added 10K. I try to look realistically at it. I didn't vote for the guy a second time. Many did, and ignoring what is offered from both sides of the argument at the time of election is pretending either to foreknowledge, or superiority.

Were I a D I'd be happy he won. His presense as a branch of government will give you all superior election results for some time to come.
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Yes, but also thousands of deaths we can never take back, a stacked supreme court, stacked judciary all around, policies it will take years, and one-party rule for that long, to reverse.

All in all, it wasn't worth the price.

I do agree with you about Kerry's Iraq plan when he was running though.
 
Damocles said:
I will again mention that the offering from the Ds was less than pleasing as well. His plan was, "What he's doing, only with 10K more soldiers!" I mean please. If all we are getting is the same plan, what was the reason to change?
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all we are getting is the same plan, what was the reason to change?


Competence. Bush has proven over and over, that he is incompetent and cannot lead.

When somebody drives the car into a ditch, you take the car keys away from him/her.


And I'm someone who voted against kerry in the primaries.
 
Damocles said:
Photos of Coffins with story about "ban"

Images debate over posted image of dying us soldier.

It didn't take much searching. Each of the items were taken from a regular newpaper and caused much debate over what they should print. One person lost their job over taking the coffin photos, yet they are still very available to any person who wants to see them.
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Thanks for the info supporting my side in thsi argument Damo.

coffins about ban.
Caused much debate about one photo of wounded soldier....

You just don;'t know what the media was like during nam, so you are not qualified to judge the difference.

Again thanks for supporting my side of the argument.
 
Damocles said:
Photos of Coffins with story about "ban"

Images debate over posted image of dying us soldier.

It didn't take much searching. Each of the items were taken from a regular newpaper and caused much debate over what they should print. One person lost their job over taking the coffin photos, yet they are still very available to any person who wants to see them.
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Do you deny that the military has been making enormous efforts to quell images of the wars of which they don't approve? If not, what do you think all of the "embedding" of journalists is about, for example? Do you deny that these efforts have been almost entirely successful?
 
Cypress said:
all we are getting is the same plan, what was the reason to change?


Competence. Bush has proven over and over, that he is incompetent and cannot lead.

When somebody drives the car into a ditch, you take the car keys away from him/her.


And I'm someone who voted against kerry in the primaries.
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Except when the person that is going to take over presents the exact same plan to drive us into the same ditch.

Imagine giving the keys to the next guy in the back who thought he was doing so well he actually gave the exact same plan...

Once again, the competence of that person must be questioned as well.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Do you deny that the military has been making enormous efforts to quell images of the wars of which they don't approve? If not, what do you think all of the "embedding" of journalists is about, for example? Do you deny that these efforts have been almost entirely successful?
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No, I don't deny that. I just fail to see how the "fairness doctrine" would make the difference here. I gave my reasons why I believe the (un)"Fairness Doctrine" to be poor policy, and why I prefer it the way it is now where we have far more choice in media than ever existed during that particular period.
 
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