MILITARY - aircraft carriers are dinosaurs? Agree or disagree?

McRocket said:
Just the USS Ford aircraft carrier alone cost about $13 billion (that is WITHOUT aircraft or support/escort ships/boats).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_R._Ford-class_aircraft_carrier


The anticipated price tag of the Russian 3M22 is only $1-2 million per missile.

https://oidagroup.com/russia-on-the-path-to-hypersonic-war/
(near the bottom of the page)

They are not that big.
About 25 feet long and weigh about 1,200 pounds.

Development is expensive (obviously).
But the missiles themselves are not.
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The USS Ford still does not work.

It might never work.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Keep in mind that the Empires satellite killers will take out instantly the communication system that was supposed to make the F-35 so great, making them dead ducks as they are as an individual unit a pretty shitty plane.
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INTERESTING.

Could you elaborate?
 
McRocket said:
INTERESTING.

Could you elaborate?
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I would join a discussion....In the meantime....Our Navy:

The Navy wants to cut four Littoral Combat Ships from the fleet as part of a cost-saving measure that will net the service $186 million, according to the service’s latest budget request.

The request to cull the ships from the battle force inventory comes despite criticism from Congress over last year’s proposal to retire the first four Littoral Combat Ships early.

Budget documents call for cutting the second Independence-class aluminum trimaran USS Coronado (LCS-4) and three Freedom-class variants – USS Fort Worth (LCS-3), USS Detroit (LCS-7) and USS Little Rock (LCS-9) – that have struggled with problems with their propulsion systems.

The Navy commissioned Forth Worth in 2012 and Coronado in 2014. Detroit commissioned in 2016 and Little Rock in 2017.
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https://news.usni.org/2021/05/28/na...ral-combat-ships-to-save-186m-in-fy-22-budget

They build four over a five years and THEN decide that they are too shit to keep.

:wall:
 
Hawkeye10 said:
It is them plus the Russians, boy.
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Oh? Ya think?

Why?

So the whole world can swirl down the toilet?

Chicom generals and Putin would be rulers of a big pile of nothing, and then it's all downhill from there.

They don't know how to lift people up and promote innovation and prosperity. It takes freedom to do that. They don't do freedom and prosperity.
 
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A little older, but Our Navy:

The sailor who went missing aboard the guided-missile cruiser USS Shiloh in June 2017 was “troubled” by personal and financial crises and displayed signs of instability days before he disappeared, triggering a sprawling man-overboard search in the Pacific before he was discovered hiding in an escape passage, Navy Times reports.

Petty Officer Third Class Peter Mims, a gas turbine systems technician aboard the Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruiser, had shouldered a failed marriage and nearly $7,000 in debt to the Navy in 2016, according to a branch investigation obtained by Navy Times under the Freedom of Information Act. According to the investigation, Mims reportedly sought out mental health counseling but never actually received support.

These stresses culminated in a “clear instability” in Mims’ behavior days before disappearance, including paranoid delusions — he told one crew member that “he could stop running engineering department engines by pulsating electricity with his body, that he could shoot fireballs out of his hands,” according to the investigation — and an unexplained absence from watch on June 5 after which Mims quipped to his fellow crew members, “If you are looking for me and can’t find me, then you are looking too hard.” From the investigation:

Mims became increasingly paranoid and delusional, later telling investigators he believed “that people had been ordered to follow him and that they were observing him in berthing and around the ship.”

Mims showed another sailor how he had placed tape on his rack and vents of his locker to prevent anyone from sticking items in his area to “frame him,” according to the investigation.

The day before he went missing, Mims met with his chain of command to discuss options for leaving the Navy early, then went and cleared out his workspace locker, telling shipmates he was spring cleaning.
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Mims disappeared on June 8. He was finally discovered on June 15 squirreled away in an engineering-space escape passage “covered in urine and feces” and equipped “with a camelback, a multi-tool, Peeps candy and an empty peanut butter jar with him,” according to the investigation.

In its report on the military investigation, Navy Times says the service also explicitly acknowledged its own role in allowing the strange Shiloh saga to occur in the first place. Despite the warning signs in the days before his disappearance, the investigation concludes that Shiloh’s CO, Capt. Adam Aycock, and his subordinates failed “to adequately assess (Mims) was not fit for full duty,” even as the troubled sailor actively displayed erratic behavior in front of the chain of command.

Related: It’s A ‘Floating Prison’: USS Shiloh Sailor Surveys Reveal A Totally Demoralized Crew »

Why were the signs missed? Because everyone was really busy, with “significant and dynamic” pressures facing the 7th Fleet after the twin collisions of Arleigh Burke-class destroyer USS Fitzgerald and USS John S. McCain over the summer, Navy Times quotes the investigation as saying. In September, the Senate Armed Services Committee grilled Navy Secretary Richard V. Spencer over readiness in the wake of those crashes, chief among them the silent, pervasive threat of sleep deprivation.

Those problems may have been magnified under Aycock’s command. Sailor comments from Shiloh command climate surveys, obtained by Navy Times in October, captured a crew on the brink of disaster: “It feels like a race to see which will break down first, the ship or it’s crew.”
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https://taskandpurpose.com/news/uss-shiloh-sailor-investigation/
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Carriers are far more flexible than an SSBN. The SSBN is a single-mission ship for all intents. A carrier is capable of doing a wide range of missions, and in particular, in scenarios short of total war. For example, a carrier is much better at the diplomatic "Show the flag" mission where it visits a foreign port. A submarine doesn't look impressive.
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A Carrier Strike Group costs at least $27-$30 Billion.
You cannot seriously justify that price tag to 'show the flag'?

And for what purpose?


Carriers not only have their aircraft as a combat function, but have the space and staff to control and coordinate large groups of naval vessels within a region or combat area of sea. This is something an SSBN cannot do. It lacks the internal space, as well as the sensor links to carry out this mission. Even carrier aircraft are more flexible. They can be launched without actually going into combat. That is, you can fly them off to show support or presence alone, something a missile cannot do. The carrier has surveillance aircraft like ELINT and AEW aboard greatly increasing its sensor capabilities far beyond that of what an SSBN can manage.
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BTW - it is 'SSGN'. 'G' for 'guided missiles' .SSBN's are the boomers (as I am quite sure you know).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ohio_(SSGN-726)

1) Coordinate large groups of ships? Just have the satellite data come into a central base and relay commands out to the task force. Or - just use an amphibious assault ship.
2) You keep mentioning 'presence/diplomacy'. I cannot fathom what this would be in 2021. What for?
3) For surveillance for the SSGN? Just use Reaper's/Avenger's/UCAV's (drones), AWACS aircraft circling in international waters and satellite-based surveillance. These would be at least as effective as anything onboard a Carrier Strike Group (to my knowledge).


A carrier doesn't have to rely on only its own onboard sensors today. This whole area of military technology has, for example, deplatformed sonar from ships as being the primary means to detect enemy submarines. Now, large sensor arrays linked by computer and data systems can find and provide the necessary data on where an enemy submarine is from hundreds of miles away, if not further. Shipboard and aircraft sonar systems are only necessary now for prosecuting the kill and weapons launch rather than finding the sub to begin with.
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I have no idea what you are talking about here.

It is presently accepted that it is not possible to detect a submerged Ohio or Columbia class submarine - unless you know roughly where it is.
They are just too quiet.
And from hundreds of miles away?
Definitely not.
Especially if it runs deep.

Whereas it is STAGGERINGLY easy to detect a Carrier Strike Group.



Now let me ask you a couple questions?

Besides the things you mention (which i believe I have dealt with - largely).

What EXACTLY can a Carrier Strike Group do - that is of use - in terms of striking targets?
That an Ohio SSGN cannot?

Basically...nothing.

You do realize that a Tomahawk cruise missile can be re-directed while in flight?
And can deploy 5, separate munitions, per mission?
And strike 5, separate targets...with mid-course correction if desired.
With no fear whatsoever of a pilot being shot down/killed/captured.
At only $1.5 million a pop with little/no maintenance required.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_(missile)

No US Navy combat aircraft can do that (the X-47 might have. But they cancelled it).
And an F-35C costs at LEAST 60 times that. Plus fuel/ordinance, plus maintenance, plus training the pilot.


Even a new Columbia class SSGN would cost about $9 billion with only 155 crew.
A Carrier Strike Group costs about $27-30 billion with at least 6,000 crew (plus bunker oil for the Arleigh Burke's).

Other than close air support - which organic Marine/Army/Air Force assets could handle?
I cannot see ANYTHING that an SSGN could not strike and destroy for a tiny fraction of the cost of a Carrier Strike Group.
And with no danger at all to air crews.
 
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The story of America's carriers is this....Too many eggs in one basket, especially when it is old tech, is not likely to work out well.
 
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