Mining the New Testament for historically reliable information

Cypress

Well-known member
Authorship:

There is no propaganda value to early Christians attributing two of the gospels to low-ranking, obscure Christians. That's what makes it seem credible. Luke's Gospel is probably reliably attributed to a companion of Paul named Luke. Mark's Gospel is probably reliably attributed to Peter's companion Mark. Gospel of Mathew probably isn't directly written by the apostle Mathew but may be based on part on earlier writings he wrote in Hebrew attesting to some of the sayings of Jesus. I don't know enough about the Gospel of John, other than it was probably written after 90 AD long after John the Apostle should have been deceased.


Historicity of Important New Testament figures:

A combination of archeological evidence, and independent first century literary sources outside the Christian canon support that Pontius Pilate, John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth, and his brother James were real historical figures.


Crucifixion:

The Jews of the early first century would never have expected the Messiah to be arrested and crucified as a common criminal. It's not a story they would have made up out of whole cloth. The fact that the apostles dispersed and ran away like rats from a sinking ship is not a flattering story and would not have just been made up.


Resurrection:

In antiquity, women would not have been considered reliable witnesses. Only a man's testimony would have been given credibility. The Gospels report that it was women who first found the empty tomb; this does not sound like a story made up from whole cloth.

That the apostles seem to believe they saw Jesus after his crucifixion is not a later legendary account added to the canon. This belief goes all the way back to the original eyewitness and to the earliest days of the Jerusalem church, as attested to in Corinthians. The fact that some of the apostles were willing to die and be persecuted for believing they had seen Jesus after the crucifixion is difficult to square with a claim that the story was simply something they conspired to make up in a tavern over carafes of wine. That doesn't necessarily mean Jesus came back from the dead, only that the apostles genuinely believed they had seen him after he was thought to be dead.
 
Authorship:

There is no propaganda value to early Christians attributing two of the gospels to low-ranking, obscure Christians. That's what makes it seem credible. Luke's Gospel is probably reliably attributed to a companion of Paul named Luke. Mark's Gospel is probably reliably attributed to Peter's companion Mark. Gospel of Mathew probably isn't directly written by the apostle Mathew but may be based on part on earlier writings he wrote in Hebrew attesting to some of the sayings of Jesus. I don't know enough about the Gospel of John, other than it was probably written after 90 AD long after John the Apostle should have been deceased.


Historicity of Important New Testament figures:

A combination of archeological evidence, and independent first century literary sources outside the Christian canon support that Pontius Pilate, John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth, and his brother James were real historical figures.


Crucifixion:

The Jews of the early first century would never have expected the Messiah to be arrested and crucified as a common criminal. It's not a story they would have made up out of whole cloth. The fact that the apostles dispersed and ran away like rats from a sinking ship is not a flattering story and would not have just been made up.


Resurrection:

In antiquity, women would not have been considered reliable witnesses. Only a man's testimony would have been given credibility. The Gospels report that it was women who first found the empty tomb; this does not sound like a story made up from whole cloth.

That the apostles seem to believe they saw Jesus after his crucifixion is not a later legendary account added to the canon. This belief goes all the way back to the original eyewitness and to the earliest days of the Jerusalem church, as attested to in Corinthians. The fact that some of the apostles were willing to die and be persecuted for believing they had seen Jesus after the crucifixion is difficult to square with a claim that the story was simply something they conspired to make up in a tavern over carafes of wine. That doesn't necessarily mean Jesus came back from the dead, only that the apostles genuinely believed they had seen him after he was thought to be dead.
All correct. So...?
 
All correct. So...?
The fact is there aren't that many people who look at the NT form the point of view of critical literary analysis.

On the internet you usually either have religious biblical literalists, or you have militant skeptics who disparage any historicity in the Bible.
 
The fact is there aren't that many people who look at the NT form the point of view of critical literary analysis.

On the internet you usually either have religious biblical literalists, or you have militant skeptics who disparage any historicity in the Bible.
Oh course not because most people are not capable of independent thought. Most people go to their respective troughs and slop up whatever is put before them.
 
Oh course not because most people are not capable of independent thought. Most people go to their respective troughs and slop up whatever is put before them.
I think a lot of humans have an innate desire to join a team. One team thinks the Bible is inerrant and literally true in all dimensions, another team wants to believe the Bible is legend and based on a web of conspiracy and lies.
 
I think a lot of humans have an innate desire to join a team. One team thinks the Bible is inerrant and literally true in all dimensions, another team wants to believe the Bible is legend and based on a web of conspiracy and lies.
I agree but that shouldn't deter people from being critical of their team when it's appropriate. In my experience the former group is more likely to be critical of their team then the latter.
 
I agree but that shouldn't deter people from being critical of their team when it's appropriate. In my experience the former group is more likely to be critical of their team then the latter.
Don't know how one could measure that.

I can't say I have ever seen a religionist question the authorship of the gospels, or the epistles, and they usually twist into themselves into pretzels to explain away any inconsistencies in the biblical text.
 
Don't know how one could measure that.

I can't say I have ever seen a religionist question the authorship of the gospels, or the epistles, and they usually twist into themselves into pretzels to explain away any inconsistencies in the biblical text.
Fairly easily i think. If people believe the "... Bible is legend and based on a web of conspiracy and lies.", there is nothing to question. I think very little could happen that might compel them to reconsider their position. On the other hand people can and recently have questioned the bible to the point of atheism. I don't think the comparison is any where near close.

I might agree that the accuracy of who authored the gospels is less important than the content of the gospels. What would you say is the biggest "inconsistency" in the bible that "religionists" must twist themselves into pretzels to "explain away"? Bet I can guess what it is.
 
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Fairly easily i think. If people believe the "... Bible is legend and based on a web of conspiracy and lies.", there is nothing to question. I think very little could happen that might compel them to reconsider their position. On the other hand people can and recently have questioned the bible to the point of atheism. I don't think the comparison is any where near close.

I might agree that the accuracy of who authored the gospels is less important than the content of the gospels. What would you say is the biggest "inconsistency" in the bible that "religionists" must twist themselves into pretzels to "explain away"? Bet I can guess what it is.
The most prominent one I have seen skeptics stress out about are the different birth narratives in Luke vs. Matthew.

My opinion is that these inconsistencies don't matter that much because they really have no bearing on fundamental Christian theology and practice. And they also disprove the claim that there was a grand conspiracy to conspire to promote lies and fabrications - the inconsistencies just show the gospels are independent literary works written by different authors. In a grand conspiracy they would have gotten their stories straight.
 
I think a lot of humans have an innate desire to join a team. One team thinks the Bible is inerrant and literally true in all dimensions, another team wants to believe the Bible is legend and based on a web of conspiracy and lies.
Agreed. Like our simian cousins, we're very tribal and stick to our "troops" for mutual protection and support. It's part of our basic nature as animals.
It's only our reasoning minds that allow us to break away from our basic natures. Note that most people tend to only go with their basic nature and social indoctrination without going any further. This, then, is the norm.

Normally chimps are noisy creatures, but on patrol they’re hard-wired. They sniff the ground and stop to listen for sounds. Their cortisol and testosterone levels are jacked 25 percent higher than normal. Chances of contacting neighboring enemies are high: 30 percent.

Ten percent of patrols result in violent fights where they hold victims down and bite, hit, kick and stomp them to death. The result? A large, safe territory rich with food, longer lives, and new females brought into the group.

Territorial boundary patrolling by chimpanzees is one of the most dramatic forms of collective action in mammals. A new study led by an Arizona State University researcher shows how working together benefits the group, regardless of whether individual chimps patrolled or not.
 
The most prominent one I have seen skeptics stress out about are the different birth narratives in Luke vs. Matthew.

My opinion is that these inconsistencies don't matter that much because they really have no bearing on fundamental Christian theology and practice. And they also disprove the claim that there was a grand conspiracy to conspire to promote lies and fabrications - the inconsistencies just show the gospels are independent literary works written by different authors. In a grand conspiracy they would have gotten their stories straight.
The Bible is not a historical document. Getting lost in those things is missed the point of the bible. The Bible does however speak masterfully about the nature of human beings and our drive to be our own gods. Luther sadly reinforced that drive with the reformation and what has followed is the fallout from that.
 
Agreed. Like our simian cousins, we're very tribal and stick to our "troops" for mutual protection and support. It's part of our basic nature as animals.
It's only our reasoning minds that allow us to break away from our basic natures. Note that most people tend to only go with their basic nature and social indoctrination without going any further. This, then, is the norm.

Normally chimps are noisy creatures, but on patrol they’re hard-wired. They sniff the ground and stop to listen for sounds. Their cortisol and testosterone levels are jacked 25 percent higher than normal. Chances of contacting neighboring enemies are high: 30 percent.

Ten percent of patrols result in violent fights where they hold victims down and bite, hit, kick and stomp them to death. The result? A large, safe territory rich with food, longer lives, and new females brought into the group.

Territorial boundary patrolling by chimpanzees is one of the most dramatic forms of collective action in mammals. A new study led by an Arizona State University researcher shows how working together benefits the group, regardless of whether individual chimps patrolled or not.

Agreed. There is something in our simian nature that safety in numbers appeals to. When one commits themselves to a team that is when there is a real danger of succumbing to confirmation bias in your judgement.
 
Agreed. There is something in our simian nature that safety in numbers appeals to. When one commits themselves to a team that is when there is a real danger of succumbing to confirmation bias in your judgement.
Like in political parties.
 
The Bible is not a historical document. Getting lost in those things is missed the point of the bible. The Bible does however speak masterfully about the nature of human beings and our drive to be our own gods. Luther sadly reinforced that drive with the reformation and what has followed is the fallout from that.
I agree that seeing the trees rather than the forest misses the point. I don't agree that the Protestant Reformation has to be viewed as an unmitigated disaster.
 
I agree that seeing the trees rather than the forest misses the point. I don't agree that the Protestant Reformation has to be viewed as an unmitigated disaster.
What Luther did was no different than what the serpent did. Now I suspect some might say what the serpent did was an unmitigated disaster but I bet many wouldn't.
 
Agreed. There is something in our simian nature that safety in numbers appeals to. When one commits themselves to a team that is when there is a real danger of succumbing to confirmation bias in your judgement.
In the long run, it works out for both chimps and humans to belong to a group in the wild.

Human beings were living in tribes for well over 275,000 years before having cities. The survival traits in our genes related to tribalism didn't go away simply because we no longer needed tribes.
 
What Luther did was no different than what the serpent did. Now I suspect some might say what the serpent did was an unmitigated disaster but I bet many wouldn't.
The Catholic church was very corrupt at the time, and even the papacy had to eventually admit Luther was right about that because they implemented the counter reformation.

Universal literacy, representative constitutional government, capitalism, and individualism was born in Northwestern Europe, and I don't think it's a complete coincidence that Northwestern Europe was ground zero for Protestantism.
 
In the long run, it works out for both chimps and humans to belong to a group in the wild.

Human beings were living in tribes for well over 275,000 years before having cities. The survival traits in our genes related to tribalism didn't go away simply because we no longer needed tribes.
I think both Protestantism and the Enlightenment played roles in the rise of individualism over communalism
 
Agreed. Like our simian cousins, we're very tribal and stick to our "troops" for mutual protection and support. It's part of our basic nature as animals.
It's only our reasoning minds that allow us to break away from our basic natures. Note that most people tend to only go with their basic nature and social indoctrination without going any further. This, then, is the norm.

Normally chimps are noisy creatures, but on patrol they’re hard-wired. They sniff the ground and stop to listen for sounds. Their cortisol and testosterone levels are jacked 25 percent higher than normal. Chances of contacting neighboring enemies are high: 30 percent.

Ten percent of patrols result in violent fights where they hold victims down and bite, hit, kick and stomp them to death. The result? A large, safe territory rich with food, longer lives, and new females brought into the group.

Territorial boundary patrolling by chimpanzees is one of the most dramatic forms of collective action in mammals. A new study led by an Arizona State University researcher shows how working together benefits the group, regardless of whether individual chimps patrolled or not.
it's smart to have allies.

there's nothing unreasonable about having a network of friends.
 
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