Mining the New Testament for historically reliable information

[Litmus]

The Catholic church was very corrupt at the time, and even the papacy had to eventually admit Luther was right about that because they implemented the counter reformation.

Universal literacy, representative constitutional government, capitalism, and individualism was born in Northwestern Europe, and I don't think it's a complete coincidence that Northwestern Europe was ground zero for Protestantism.

luckily morality is rational.

we don;t need religion to reason through together what morality is.

Jesus said it's empathy. that's why you keep trying to "disprove" Christianity or whatever it is you;re doing with your "historicity" stuff..

masons like you will always say morality is backward and that true morality is enlightened mass murder.

you're cancer on society.

 

[Yakuda]

The Catholic church was very corrupt at the time, and even the papacy had to eventually admit Luther was right about that because they implemented the counter reformation.

Universal literacy, representative constitutional government, capitalism, and individualism was born in Northwestern Europe, and I don't think it's a complete coincidence that Northwestern Europe was ground zero for Protestantism.

All true but how Luther moved forward had the same effect as the serpent. The truth doesnt change the effect of his choices.

It's a minor coincidence at best. Today representative constitutional govt and capitalism are reviled. As for universal literacy, it has been replaced with universal adherence to an approved ideology. The only one with any real staying power has been individualism and just like the serpent and Luther intended, it creates division.

The sad part is Adam is the first soy boy. He knew what was right and what was wrong but instead of standing up to the serpent he just caved. There is no more right and wrong.

 

[Cypress]

The Catholic church was very corrupt at the time, and even the papacy had to eventually admit Luther was right about that because they implemented the counter reformation.

Universal literacy, representative constitutional government, capitalism, and individualism was born in Northwestern Europe, and I don't think it's a complete coincidence that Northwestern Europe was ground zero for Protestantism.

All true but how Luther moved forward had the same effect as the serpent. The truth doesnt change the effect of his choices.

It's a minor coincidence at best. Today representative constitutional govt and capitalism are reviled. As for universal literacy, it has been replaced with universal adherence to an approved ideology. The only one with any real staying power has been individualism and just like the serpent and Luther intended, it creates division.

The sad part is Adam is the first soy boy. He knew what was right and what was wrong but instead of standing up to the serpent he just caved. There is no more right and wrong.

The intended and unintended consequences of the Protestant Reformation was the rejection of ecclesiastical hierarchy, a doctrine of a priesthood of all believers, a belief that all people should be able to read their bible in their own language, and a belief that success and even moderate wealth in this life was not sinful; that the focus of humans should not just be on the afterlife

You can draw an arrow between the Protestant Reformation and the development of representative government, democratic institutions, universal literacy, and capitalism in Northwestern Europe, and you would be at a minimum at least partially correct.

 

[Yakuda]

The intended and unintended consequences of the Protestant Reformation was the rejection of ecclesiastical hierarchy, a doctrine of a priesthood of all believers, a belief that all people should be able to read their bible in their own language, and a belief that success and even moderate wealth in this life was not sinful; that the focus of humans should not just be on the afterlife

You can draw an arrow between the Protestant Reformation and the development of representative government, democratic institutions, universal literacy, and capitalism in Northwestern Europe, and you would be at a minimum at least partially correct.

Exactly how the serpent got to Eve. God is keeping something from you. He doesnt want you to be like him. We will never be like God no matter how much we believe we can. That's been our down fall.

The Catholic Church is essentially responsible for the ideas of the university system and hospitals. You can draw an arrow between any two things.

 

[Kafka]

Authorship:

There is no propaganda value to early Christians attributing two of the gospels to low-ranking, obscure Christians. That's what makes it seem credible. Luke's Gospel is probably reliably attributed to a companion of Paul named Luke. Mark's Gospel is probably reliably attributed to Peter's companion Mark. Gospel of Mathew probably isn't directly written by the apostle Mathew but may be based on part on earlier writings he wrote in Hebrew attesting to some of the sayings of Jesus. I don't know enough about the Gospel of John, other than it was probably written after 90 AD long after John the Apostle should have been deceased.


Historicity of Important New Testament figures:

A combination of archeological evidence, and independent first century literary sources outside the Christian canon support that Pontius Pilate, John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth, and his brother James were real historical figures.


Crucifixion:

The Jews of the early first century would never have expected the Messiah to be arrested and crucified as a common criminal. It's not a story they would have made up out of whole cloth. The fact that the apostles dispersed and ran away like rats from a sinking ship is not a flattering story and would not have just been made up.


Resurrection:

In antiquity, women would not have been considered reliable witnesses. Only a man's testimony would have been given credibility. The Gospels report that it was women who first found the empty tomb; this does not sound like a story made up from whole cloth.

That the apostles seem to believe they saw Jesus after his crucifixion is not a later legendary account added to the canon. This belief goes all the way back to the original eyewitness and to the earliest days of the Jerusalem church, as attested to in Corinthians. The fact that some of the apostles were willing to die and be persecuted for believing they had seen Jesus after the crucifixion is difficult to square with a claim that the story was simply something they conspired to make up in a tavern over carafes of wine. That doesn't necessarily mean Jesus came back from the dead, only that the apostles genuinely believed they had seen him after he was thought to be dead.

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

 

[Hume]

Nothing is more boring than religion.

 

[Cypress]

The Catholic Church is essentially responsible for the ideas of the university system and hospitals. You can draw an arrow between any two things.

And keeping literacy alive and being islands of learning in western Europe in the MIddle Ages, and recovering much of the lost Greek knowledge from the East. I am not on Team Protestant, Team Catholic, or Team Atheist. What interests me is genuine historical knowledge.

That fact about the universities doesn't change the fact the Catholic Church had become very corrupt by the late Middle Ages, and somebody like Luther or the others were going to eventually react against it.

 

[Cypress]

luckily morality is rational.

we don;t need religion to reason through together what morality is.

I like how you use "we" in the assumption that you, left to your own devices, could have just independently come up with the same moral vision and ethos that Jesus or Confucious did.
You think it sounds easy because you are the beneficiary of inheriting a 2,000 year old JudeoChristian civilization. What Jesus and Confucius taught was radical for it's time. It just seems like common sense to you because, without lifting a finger, you inherited and were handed two millennia of tradition.

 

[Litmus]

I like how you use "we" in the assumption that you, left to your own devices, could have just independently come up with the same moral vision and ethos that Jesus or Confucious did.
You think it sounds easy because you are the beneficiary of inheriting a 2,000 year old JudeoChristian civilization. What Jesus and Confucius taught was radical for it's time. It just seems like common sense to you because, without lifting a finger, you inherited and were handed two millennia of tradition.

cooperation and not harming others is apparent.

all groups of people discover it on their own, and practice it within small to large groups.

you like to pretend that morality is just obedience to an authority figure, and that does happen when tribes go toxic, but that is TOXICITY.

you pervert the whole meaning with your masonic dipshittery.

 

[Cypress]

cooperation and not harming others is apparent.

Bullshit. I repeatedly showed you that history is replete with cases of ritual child sacrifice and the murder of identical twins. Ever heard of the Caste system in India, human sacrifice, or slavery? Murder, slavery, and human sacrifice seemed perfectly sensible to many cultures for thousands of years.

all groups of people discover it on their own, and practice it within small to large groups.

you like to pretend that morality is just obedience to an authority figure, and that does happen when tribes go toxic, but that is TOXICITY.

you pervert the whole meaning with your masonic dipshittery.

It's the easiest thing in the world to sit back and look in hindsight from the 21st century, and say that you would have independently on your own in the first century AD come up with Jesus's moral vision.

 

[Kafka]

Nothing is more boring than religion.

So you tell everyone on literally every single thread on the topic that you post on.

Do you need a trophy?

 

[Litmus]

Bullshit. I repeatedly showed you that history is replete with cases of ritual child sacrifice and the murder of identical twins. Ever heard of the Caste system in India, human sacrifice, or slavery? Murder, slavery, and human sacrifice seemed perfectly sensible to many cultures for thousands of years.


It's the easiest thing in the world to sit back and look in hindsight from the 21st century, and say that you would have independently on your own in the first century AD come up with Jesus's moral vision.

and many at the time probably thought it was immoral.

you can't prove everyone thought it was moral.

morality doesn't mean everyone's equal.

poor people can accept the existence of their betters.

but when the rich people start thinking it;s ok to kill everyone else with big sugar, big pharma, and big war a correction naturally occurs.

you globalist fascists are the Nazis.

you will be stopped.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I think both Protestantism and the Enlightenment played roles in the rise of individualism over communalism

Agreed. Notice how the Catholic church, with its kneeling to the Pope, is simply a religious version of a monarchy. Even with Protestants, the idea of God is as a monarch on a golden throne, separate and superior to all human souls.

The MAGA movement is similar; a supreme leader who promises to take care of the faithful.

All put communalism above individuality. This is why I believe MAGA is anti-American; it goes against the basic principle of individualism in favor of communalism: snapping one's heels together in favor of a supreme leader.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Nothing is more boring than religion.

Reason #253 on why I think you're an immature woman, Ms. Hume. Probably under 25.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

So you tell everyone on literally every single thread on the topic that you post on.

Do you need a trophy?

She needs a boyfriend that doesn't require batteries or a solar charger.

 

[Cypress]

Nothing is more boring than religion.

I think tax law, baseball, and accounting are more boring.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I think tax law, baseball, and accounting are more boring.

Throw watching golf on television in the mix. LOL

FWIW, yes, watching baseball on television is boring, but an actual game is a lot more fun.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed. Notice how the Catholic church, with its kneeling to the Pope, is simply a religious version of a monarchy. Even with Protestants, the idea of God is as a monarch on a golden throne, separate and superior to all human souls.

The MAGA movement is similar; a supreme leader who promises to take care of the faithful.

All put communalism above individuality. This is why I believe MAGA is anti-American; it goes against the basic principle of individualism in favor of communalism: snapping one's heels together in favor of a supreme leader.

MAGA morons definitely need a cult leader.

From the perspective of feudalism and absolute monarchy, the most dangerous thing about Protestantism was the doctrine of a priesthood of all believers, and the most dangerous thing about the Enlightenment was the doctrine of universal natural rights. They eroded the long standing Medieval social hierarchy.

 

[Cypress]

Throw watching golf on television in the mix. LOL

FWIW, yes, watching baseball on television is boring, but an actual game is a lot more fun.

I really tried to get into baseball and went with my friends to dozens of Baltimore Orioles games. Another claim to fame is I am one of the few people alive who saw the old Washington Senators play in DC. But I finally decided this
game was almost as boring as watching professional bowling.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I really tried to get into baseball and went with my friends to dozens of Baltimore Orioles games. Another claim to fame is I am one of the few people alive who saw the old Washington Senators play in DC. But I finally decided this
game was almost as boring as watching professional bowling.

Good one on bowling. Most games are more fun to play than to watch.