Morality without God

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar said:
Wow, ad hom much?

There is no need to "grab on to this to support atheism." You don't bother to offer any alternative explanation of the observed phenomena/behaviors. You just try to attack the scientists.

I was speaking directly about the conservatives here who have argued that morality is dependent on religion.
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'grab on to' was a poor choice of words....I meant nothing more than to say that it helps their cause to a degree....and they would most likely agree.

You didn't say just conservatives "here" in you post....I don't assume what you mean to post...I take what you actually say to be what you actually mean....

I don't need to attack the scientists or whoever came up these foolish assertions on such flimsy 'evidence'....to assume you know what was in the mind
of an animal because of who served it a treat is rediclous in my mind. Expecially to assume it to be a moral judgement is ludicrous.
and
I don't know what 'conservatives' say morality is dependent on religion....I'm certainly not one that would make such a blanket assertion.

I'd venture the innate desire of self preservation is what drives us to show civility, morals is a different matter that would lend itself to the more religious or mystical side
of man.....religion was probably born out of fear of the unknown and fear of the mysterious power of nature to earliest man....not monkeys....

Like not stealing from another of the tribe as opposed to not angering the Gods or whatever by an individual deed unrelated to the tribe...but the two would
surely overlap in hundreds of ways....civility and morals are not polar opposites but not quite interchangeable either

Just my opinion....I'm sure you have your own, or easier yet to just agree with the 'scientists and the monkeys' ...that have it all explained...
 
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oh I can find a copy....I'm just wondering where in it I can find what you're claiming is there......or is this another thing you don't have to prove because you're an atheist......
 
PostmodernProphet said:
oh I can find a copy....I'm just wondering where in it I can find what you're claiming is there......or is this another thing you don't have to prove because you're an atheist......
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Most, if not all the teachings of the bible are found in Grimm if not you can try Aesop. More than that I do not intend to say. Once again you are stating something which goes against the natural laws of existence and it for you to show evidence. I dont give a toss whether there was someone called Lot, Lit or Lut and whether he or she or it was married or simply bonking some passing nun.
 
Sir Digby Chicken Caesar said:
Conservatives have it backwards. The universal condemnation of things like stealing and murder are not a sign that religion shapes our morality, but that our morality shapes our religions. We don't need God to know why this or that act is wrong. We sense it at a deeper level as do our closest relatives.

Of course, as humans with a somewhat higher logical capacity (i.e., not the conservatives) we are capable of making inferences and deriving laws.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2013/03/21/174830095/frans-de-waals-bottom-up-morality-were-not-good-because-of-god

In a book coming out next week called The Bonobo and the Atheist, primatologist Frans de Waal argues that morality is built into our species. Rather than coming to us top-down from God, or any other external source, morality for de Waal springs bottom-up from our emotions and our day-to-day social interactions, which themselves evolved from foundations in animal societies.

For 30 years, de Waal has authored books about apes and monkey that open our eyes to the bottom-up origins of our human behaviors, ranging from politics to empathy. In this, his 10th volume, he extends that perspective by writing, "It wasn't God who introduced us to morality; rather, it was the other way around. God was put into place to help us live the way we felt we ought to."

"The way we felt we ought to" has a long evolutionary history, so that de Waal's thesis depends crucially on numerous and convincing examples from our closest living relatives.
Azalea, a trisomic rhesus macaque (trisomic = born with three copies of a certain chromosome), had abnormal motor and social skills, in ways somewhat akin to humans with Down syndrome. Instead of punishing her "incomprehensible blunders," such as threatening the alpha male, the other macaques were accepting and forgiving of her until Azalea's death at age three. Female chimpanzees may confront and shut down an overly aggressive male, sometimes even pulling two adversaries close together for reconciliation, or prying rocks from an aroused males' hands.

In cases like these, animals are feeling empathy, then acting on that feeling with displays of kindness or help, behavior that de Waal calls sympathy. The empathy is purely embodied — literally felt in the body — and part of our evolved biology. "Our brains have been designed to blur the line between self and other," he writes. "It is an ancient neural circuitry that marks every mammal, from mouse to elephant."
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'morality' is not built into any species that i am aware of

morality is a function of society and each society has its own morality

while killing and stealing from other members of a society is usually forbidden, i do not know if that was universal in all societies and certainly war against other societies was not forbidden by all societies and is not even today

bummer
 
Lowaicue said:
I think you'll find that the Brothers grimm correctly prophesised this in several of their stories. Who would have thought that they were god in disguise. Wow!
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They were not God. They just had enough sense to follow the morals that God proclaimed in his Word.
 
Sir Digby Chicken Caesar said:
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http://www.lookupcenter.org/ many churches in our area help staff this organization through volunteering, my wife helps in the dental area where they do extractions for free. Our Church also provides a free meal every third thursday of the month, and my Mother runs the food pantry in our church that is supplied by donations only, and it only gives to the poor, so much for you trashing churches.
 
Sir Digby Chicken Caesar said:
Conservatives have it backwards. The universal condemnation of things like stealing and murder are not a sign that religion shapes our morality, but that our morality shapes our religions. We don't need God to know why this or that act is wrong. We sense it at a deeper level as do our closest relatives.

Of course, as humans with a somewhat higher logical capacity (i.e., not the conservatives) we are capable of making inferences and deriving laws.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2013/03/21/174830095/frans-de-waals-bottom-up-morality-were-not-good-because-of-god

In a book coming out next week called The Bonobo and the Atheist, primatologist Frans de Waal argues that morality is built into our species. Rather than coming to us top-down from God, or any other external source, morality for de Waal springs bottom-up from our emotions and our day-to-day social interactions, which themselves evolved from foundations in animal societies.

For 30 years, de Waal has authored books about apes and monkey that open our eyes to the bottom-up origins of our human behaviors, ranging from politics to empathy. In this, his 10th volume, he extends that perspective by writing, "It wasn't God who introduced us to morality; rather, it was the other way around. God was put into place to help us live the way we felt we ought to."

"The way we felt we ought to" has a long evolutionary history, so that de Waal's thesis depends crucially on numerous and convincing examples from our closest living relatives.
Azalea, a trisomic rhesus macaque (trisomic = born with three copies of a certain chromosome), had abnormal motor and social skills, in ways somewhat akin to humans with Down syndrome. Instead of punishing her "incomprehensible blunders," such as threatening the alpha male, the other macaques were accepting and forgiving of her until Azalea's death at age three. Female chimpanzees may confront and shut down an overly aggressive male, sometimes even pulling two adversaries close together for reconciliation, or prying rocks from an aroused males' hands.

In cases like these, animals are feeling empathy, then acting on that feeling with displays of kindness or help, behavior that de Waal calls sympathy. The empathy is purely embodied — literally felt in the body — and part of our evolved biology. "Our brains have been designed to blur the line between self and other," he writes. "It is an ancient neural circuitry that marks every mammal, from mouse to elephant."
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Since God is the Creator, morality could only come from him no matter when it started.
 
patriot66 said:
http://www.lookupcenter.org/ many churches in our area help staff this organization through volunteering, my wife helps in the dental area where they do extractions for free. Our Church also provides a free meal every third thursday of the month, and my Mother runs the food pantry in our church that is supplied by donations only, and it only gives to the poor, so much for you trashing churches.
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Well said.
 
patriot66 said:
http://www.lookupcenter.org/ many churches in our area help staff this organization through volunteering, my wife helps in the dental area where they do extractions for free. Our Church also provides a free meal every third thursday of the month, and my Mother runs the food pantry in our church that is supplied by donations only, and it only gives to the poor, so much for you trashing churches.
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I posted a story on one church, cry baby.
 
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