More Troops, Less Troops, or.... Both?

So, while you are all seemingly able to acknowledge that this insurgency can't operate without some sort of outside influence and assistance, you feel that we should not assist the legitimate democratic government of Iraq, and this will somehow "help" the situation. Furthermore, you think it is totally justifiable, that Iran and Syria are aiding and funding the insurgency in Iraq, in an attempt to thwart the democratically elected government. That's really brilliant! //sarcasm off
 
What are you trying to establish? That it's "fair" for the insurgents to get outside aid? That the enemies of Iraq are "justified" in funding an internal conflict in Iraq? Who's side are you on here? It's a little fuzzy to me.

I am establishing that it is not a unified "insurgency" at war against the "legitimate" government of Iraq. It is sunnis and shiites going at one another and we are stuck in the middle.
 
you are failing to recognize, it's not a generic civil war at all. If this were two internal factions within the country, both with the ability to produce arms and wage war, that is one thing, but if the insurgents are a proxy army for Syria and Iran, this is not a generic internal conflict

"Generic civil war"????

See monkey boy tapdance!
:orang:

Virtually every modern civil war has had outside powers involved. From the soviets and germans in the spanish civil war, to the americans and sandinistas in the El Salvadoran civil war, to Israel, Syria and Iraq in the Lebanese civil war.

Also, ever heard of the international black market for arms? Warring factions are not neccessarily totally dependent on Nation-state allies for armaments.

No amount of hilarious spinning and tapdancing is going to enable you to sell the proposition that outside influence negates the fact that Iraq is a civil war.
 
Virtually every modern civil war has had outside powers involved. From the soviets and germans in the spanish civil war, to the americans and sandinistas in the El Salvadoran civil war, to Israel, Syria and Iraq in the Lebanese civil war.

Also, ever heard of the international black market for arms? Warring factions are not neccessarily totally dependent on Nation-state allies for armaments.

No amount of hilarious spinning and tapdancing is going to enable you to sell the proposition that outside influence negates the fact that Iraq is a civil war.


You are citing examples of generic civil war, which is often aided by outside forces. That is not my argument or point. A generic civil war is one which has two clearly defined factions, at war internally. They may very will be aided by outside sources. Is this what kind of "civil war" is being waged in Iraq? If so, who are the insurgents outside sources? Why should the insurgents gain benefit from outside sources, while Iraqi's have to fend for themselves, without our assistance?

You want to make two different arguments, and they don't jibe. First, you want to say that what is happening in Iraq, is mostly Iraqi's, no outside influence, yet when confronted with the issue of how the insurgents are able to gain reinforcement and replenish their arsenals, you admit their are outside influences at play. If this were truly an internal conflict, the demise would be inevitable, because the insurgents lack the infrastructure to replenish.

If this so-called "Civil War" were two internal factions fighting for power, that would be a generic civil war, and we could say that one side is being supported and funded by Syria and Iran, while the other side is being funded by the US. If this is the case, what is the rationale for shirking our responsibilities to stand with our allies in Iraq, against a foreign enemy?
 
I am establishing that it is not a unified "insurgency" at war against the "legitimate" government of Iraq. It is sunnis and shiites going at one another and we are stuck in the middle.

Okay, let's assume this is the case, are you saying we should allow the Sunni's to gain funding from Syria and Iran, to overthrow the legitimately elected democratic government of Iraq, while we abandon our allies and withhold our support?

We're not "stuck in the middle" at all. We are clearly on the side of the democratic government of Iraq. There is an insurgent force, being aided and funded by outside forces who do not wish to see democracy in Iraq, and we stand firmly with the Iraqi's in establishing democracy, I don't see that as being "stuck in the middle" of anything, our position has been quite clear and unambiguous.
 
Virtually every modern civil war has had outside powers involved. From the soviets and germans in the spanish civil war, to the americans and sandinistas in the El Salvadoran civil war, to Israel, Syria and Iraq in the Lebanese civil war.

Also, ever heard of the international black market for arms? Warring factions are not neccessarily totally dependent on Nation-state allies for armaments.

No amount of hilarious spinning and tapdancing is going to enable you to sell the proposition that outside influence negates the fact that Iraq is a civil war.


You are citing examples of generic civil war, which is often aided by outside forces. That is not my argument or point. A generic civil war is one which has two clearly defined factions, at war internally. They may very will be aided by outside sources. Is this what kind of "civil war" is being waged in Iraq? If so, who are the insurgents outside sources? Why should the insurgents gain benefit from outside sources, while Iraqi's have to fend for themselves, without our assistance?

You want to make two different arguments, and they don't jibe. First, you want to say that what is happening in Iraq, is mostly Iraqi's, no outside influence, yet when confronted with the issue of how the insurgents are able to gain reinforcement and replenish their arsenals, you admit their are outside influences at play. If this were truly an internal conflict, the demise would be inevitable, because the insurgents lack the infrastructure to replenish.

If this so-called "Civil War" were two internal factions fighting for power, that would be a generic civil war, and we could say that one side is being supported and funded by Syria and Iran, while the other side is being funded by the US. If this is the case, what is the rationale for shirking our responsibilities to stand with our allies in Iraq, against a foreign enemy?


1) What on God's green earth makes you think a civil war has to have only two warring factions? The lebanese civil war had many factions and militias which comprised ever-shifting alliances: christian militias, sunni militias, shia miltias, druzes, etc. The afghan and somali civil wars of the early 1990s had many warlords, factions and militias that fought each other. And what th heck is a "generic civil war". That's not a formal definition....you just made it up.

2) I've never said we have to withdraw support from the iraqi government.

3) The U.S. government concedes that foreign fighters are only a small part of the insurgency and civil war. I never said that iran and syria weren't involved. ALL MODERN CIVIL WARS have external involvement. However, I don't have any knowledge of the extent of iranian and syrian influence -- and neither do you. Insurgents can buy weapons on the international black market, they can buy weapons from their infiltrators in the american-trained police and army, and iraq was armed to the teeth before the war- the ammo dumps were looted.
 
Okay, let's assume this is the case, are you saying we should allow the Sunni's to gain funding from Syria and Iran, to overthrow the legitimately elected democratic government of Iraq, while we abandon our allies and withhold our support?

We're not "stuck in the middle" at all. We are clearly on the side of the democratic government of Iraq. There is an insurgent force, being aided and funded by outside forces who do not wish to see democracy in Iraq, and we stand firmly with the Iraqi's in establishing democracy, I don't see that as being "stuck in the middle" of anything, our position has been quite clear and unambiguous.

why, if you claim to know so much about this situation, would you EVER suggest that sunnis would ever gain funding from Iran? There are about as many sunnis in Iran as there are southern baptists.

The issue is that there is NOT ONE insurgent force, but several. and they are fighting one another...it is between these faction(s) of sunnis (who are not supported ONE IOTA by Iran) and shia (who are) that we find ourselves stuck.... the Iraqi government is only one player in this game, and not even a very effective one. I would imagine that most shiites find more leadership in Sadr than they do in Maliki.

Dixie.... look....you are clearly out of your league in this discussion. You cannot keep the players straight. YOU think that Iran funds sunni insurgents. You are a moron. Go back to telling us about how the republican majority in the senate is going to eliminate judicial filibusters.....ooops..... I guess you can't even bullshit about THAT anymore, can you?
 
What are you trying to establish? That it's "fair" for the insurgents to get outside aid? That the enemies of Iraq are "justified" in funding an internal conflict in Iraq? Who's side are you on here? It's a little fuzzy to me.

Its a simple statement of fact. An american occupation or iraq would be resisted by iraqi nationalists and theocrats, and would be resisted and exploited by neighboring muslim nations.

Don't act suprised. We told you if you swung a bat at a hornets nest, you'd get us stung. We warned you before invading: You should have redeployed from iraq shortly after taking bagdad and removing Saddam's regime.
 
and now his only avenue is: it doesn't really matter how or why we got ourselves in this quagmire, you democrats need to come up with a plan in the next twenty minutes to solve it all.
 
You cannot keep the players straight. YOU think that Iran funds sunni insurgents.

You were the one suggesting it was Sunni vs. Shia, I just assumed you knew what you were talking about. The US is not funding or supporting Sunni insurgents loyal to Saddam, so either they are getting outside support, or they have no way to replenish their arsenal.

The issue is that there is NOT ONE insurgent force, but several.
It is sunnis and shiites going at one another and we are stuck in the middle.


See... these are two completely contradicting positions. How can this be a civil war between Sunni and Shiites, yet also be "several" insurgent forces? The more you yammer, the less sense you are making. The legitimately elected democratic government of Iraq, has a problem with insurgency which is largely supported and funded by Syria and Iran. Let's be honest about that, and stop pretending we are in the middle of some internal conflict.
 
look douchebag...these are your words:

"Okay, let's assume this is the case, are you saying we should allow the Sunni's to gain funding from Syria and Iran, to overthrow the legitimately elected democratic government of Iraq, while we abandon our allies and withhold our support?

YOU are the one who knows so little about the region that you think that sunnis get anything from Iran. The US is, of course, not backing the sunnis..... we are backing the shiite majority government...but even THEY are not the leading players amongst the shiites.....

really...you are just too fucking stupid to teach. Just admit that you fucked up with that assertion....you'll score points if you do.

So you are saying that for the term "civil war" to apply, there must be two and only two diametrically opposed sides to the conflict?

Please then tell me what was happening in Lebanon in the late 70's.... there were all sorts of different factions involved.... sunnis, shiites, druze, Christians, palestinians refuges....are you saying THAT WASN'T a "civil war"?
 
and when you say that you assumed I knew what I was talking about, you were correct. YOU are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about and you prove that every day......

sunnis getting aid from Syria AND Iran....that is just too fucking funny to be believed!
 
look douchebag...these are your words:

"Okay, let's assume this is the case, are you saying we should allow the Sunni's to gain funding from Syria and Iran, to overthrow the legitimately elected democratic government of Iraq, while we abandon our allies and withhold our support?

YOU are the one who knows so little about the region that you think that sunnis get anything from Iran. The US is, of course, not backing the sunnis..... we are backing the shiite majority government...but even THEY are not the leading players amongst the shiites.....

really...you are just too fucking stupid to teach. Just admit that you fucked up with that assertion....you'll score points if you do.

So you are saying that for the term "civil war" to apply, there must be two and only two diametrically opposed sides to the conflict?

Please then tell me what was happening in Lebanon in the late 70's.... there were all sorts of different factions involved.... sunnis, shiites, druze, Christians, palestinians refuges....are you saying THAT WASN'T a "civil war"?


Calling me a douchebag and insisting I made some ridiculous claim I didn't make, is par for the course with you. The only thing I know is, the legitimate Iraqi government is having trouble with an insurgency. You keep claiming it's not our problem and we shouldn't get in the middle of this "internal struggle", yet this has proven to not be an internal struggle at all. You continue to want to ignore or marginalize Iranian and Syrian support for the insurgency, while insisting we remove support from the Iraqi government, while claiming this is a purely internal struggle. You hop around from one emotional plea to the next, with total disregard for facts and reality.

South Korea vs. North Korea... that was a civil war. Both sides controlled infrastructure and had a capital and military strategic base. Both sides were funded and aided by outside sources, and as we've established, this is almost always the case. The discerning factor is the infrastructure, and the nucleus of internal dissent. This insurgency doesn't seem to have this, it is disorganized, relegated to random acts of terrorism, and isolated within key areas of Iraq. This is not some North vs. South war, that we are "stuck in the middle of" in Iraq, the "enemy" of the legitimate government, is an insurgency funded, equipped and supplied, largely by Syria and Iran, and it's not completely internal at all.

No, I am not wrong in my assertion, I am spot on, as usual. If it is your wish to believe that all civil wars have sides who are supported by the outside, then you should be able to understand, the Iraqi government is depending on the US to be there in support. "Extracting ourselves from Civil War" as you want to put it, is essentially abandoning one side in the so-called 'Civil War' while allowing support for the other side to continue unfettered. In other words, your strategy is to bail on our ally, and lose. Just like Vietnam.
 
3 to 1 sunni to shiite
Actually a bit more, it is 74% Sunni, 16% Shi'a, 10% Christian...

It seems that one side could help the Sunnis, while the other could help the Shi'a, if their hatred for the US didn't create some unholy alliance.
 
Dixie says:

The only thing I know is, the legitimate Iraqi government is having trouble with an insurgency.

and when you assumethat this "insurgency" is some monolithic force fighting against the "legitimate Iraqi government, you further show that a little knowledge is dangerous.

Here's a little fact: arab sunnis HATE Iranian shiites. Iran does not provide any support to the sunnis. You suggested that they did and you stated above why you would think that...when you stated that "the only thing I know" was the first layer of a problem with as many layers as a fucking onion.

The "Insurgency" is not just sunnis fighting against the "legitimate Iraqi government...it is sunnis (who are probably getting assistance from Syria and other sunni muslim states) fighting against shiites loyal to Sadr (who, in all probability IS getting assistance from Iran)... and it is Al Qaeda in Iraq stirring up the pot against all sides, but primarily against Americans and the shiites and the government (which is controlled primarily by shiites).

YOu have this infantile, profoundly oversimplified vision of the "legitimate Iraqi government" being beseiged by this unified "insurgency" which is being supplied jointly by Syria and Iran, and that is not the case. Iraqi sunnis and Iraqi shiites are fighting for control of the country.... and we are caught in the middle of that fight, and, to a similar extent, so is the "legitimate Iraqi government".
 
and when you say that you assumed I knew what I was talking about, you were correct. YOU are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about and you prove that every day......

sunnis getting aid from Syria AND Iran....that is just too fucking funny to be believed!

It is sunnis and shiites going at one another and we are stuck in the middle.

I was responding to this quote. I don't know where you got the idea I thought anything, I just addressed a ridiculous point you made, and you proceeded to bash me over the head with your ridiculousness.

No, as far as I know, this is not Suni/Shia as much as it's pro-democracy/anti-democracy. The legitimately elected democratic government of Iraq, represents the pro-democracy side, and the insurgents represent the anti-democracy side, and they are being funded by enemies outside of Iraq, who do not wish to see democracy succeed. You appear to be okay with that, and willing to allow these outside forces to go unfettered, while withdrawing our support for the pro-democracy forces of the legitimately elected government, who is also our ally. You've chosen to play on the emotional appeals, by calling it a "Civil War" and portraying it as an internal struggle we have no business in. The problem is, if this were the case, they would have been defeated from lack of support and infrastructure by now.


Why don't you cut the crap, and explain why you want to lobby for the enemy? Do you hate America that much?
 
and we TOLD you that invading Iraq would stir up a hornet's nest.... and it has.

As bad a guy as Saddam was, he was INFINITELY more effective at:

1. keeping islamic extremists from getting a foothold in HIS country
2. keeping sunnis and shiites from slaughtering one another
3. keeping Iran in check

and he did all three of those things better than the United States.

and all three of those things would HELP us in our war against Islamic extremism...

which makes this Iraq war the dumbest most counterproductive war in our history.... and it will forever be associated with George Bush and the republican party.

congratulations for fucking up the globe in six short years.

This country would be wise to NEVER give you irresponsible bunch of bozos the keys EVER AGAIN.
 
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