My position on illegal immigration

I'm curious as to why you think they shouldn't receive social security credit for the amount they've paid into the system -- your point (2). If I happen to commit some crime or another while I'm paying into the system I don't lose my SS credits.
 
Because...

OrnotBitwise said:
I'm curious as to why you think they shouldn't receive social security credit for the amount they've paid into the system -- your point (2). If I happen to commit some crime or another while I'm paying into the system I don't lose my SS credits.
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I assume you are a legal citizen or resident Alien entitled to coverage under the law!
If one is not a citizen or legal resident they are working illegally...so benefits do not apply...simple really!
 
Damocles said:
And thus full agreement with Bush was the order of the day...

Does it feel good to know that you are 100% on board with Bush?
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I'm concerned that for the past 6 months or so, I find nothing to relate to Bush with. Coming from a former worker on his campaigns. Sheesh. He sucks, for many reasons. I'm not surprised that the opposition finds points of agreeement.
 
Battleborne said:
I assume you are a legal citizen or resident Alien entitled to coverage under the law!
If one is not a citizen or legal resident they are working illegally...so benefits do not apply...simple really!
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According to one interpretation, yes. On the other hand, if one pays into the system -- which most "illegals" do, having false social security numbers -- why should one forfeit the benefits for which one's paid? That's like taking away your tax refund just because you got a speeding ticket, say.
 
The clue being...

OrnotBitwise said:
According to one interpretation, yes. On the other hand, if one pays into the system -- which most "illegals" do, having false social security numbers -- why should one forfeit the benefits for which one's paid? That's like taking away your tax refund just because you got a speeding ticket, say.
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Under law...the SS# was a false document...who does this number belong to...surely not the illegal alien with a 'illegal document'(forgery)...which both have penalties under the law!
 
Battleborne said:
Under law...the SS# was a false document...who does this number belong to...surely not the illegal alien with a 'illegal document'(forgery)...which both have penalties under the law!
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Big deal. So he or she filed a false document. I'm shocked; shocked I tell you! :rolleyes:

You're talking about confiscating people's wages -- their personal property, in your narrow little conception of the world -- because of a bit of beaurocratic red tape they fudged.

How about we pass a law that says anyone who possesses an unregistered firearm will have any real property forfeited to the federal government? Makes sense to me.
 
No I'm not!

OrnotBitwise said:
Big deal. So he or she filed a false document. I'm shocked; shocked I tell you! :rolleyes:

You're talking about confiscating people's wages -- their personal property, in your narrow little conception of the world -- because of a bit of beaurocratic red tape they fudged.

How about we pass a law that says anyone who possesses an unregistered firearm will have any real property forfeited to the federal government? Makes sense to me.
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I am talking about enforceing the laws...I do not write laws...however I do have a pretty good grasp on how and why they work...!
You are arguing apples and oranges...without merit I may add!
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Big deal. So he or she filed a false document. I'm shocked; shocked I tell you! :rolleyes:

You're talking about confiscating people's wages -- their personal property, in your narrow little conception of the world -- because of a bit of beaurocratic red tape they fudged.

How about we pass a law that says anyone who possesses an unregistered firearm will have any real property forfeited to the federal government? Makes sense to me.
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In order for the false SS# to work they must actually have a valid number. This is identity theft and has caused major problems for some, especially with latino last names.
 
Damocles said:
In order for the false SS# to work they must actually have a valid number. This is identity theft and has caused major problems for some, especially with latino last names.
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Sure, but so have illegal lane changes on the freeway. In fact, I suspect that illegal lane changes have killed far more people than has the practice of hijacking the SS numbers of dead people -- which is how it's usually done.

Not all laws are equally important. Surely we can all stipulate to this, can't we? Furthermore, there are, in almost every class of violation, potentially extenuating circumstances. If there weren't there would be no need for judges, nor for sentencing hearings of any kind.

What laws have these illegal immigrants transgressed, really? I mean, come on: it's not like they've killed anyone or robbed any homes. They've fudged some bureaucratic red tape, yes. Who hasn't? I certainly have, from time to time.
 
Not a serious law being broken, wonder what the illegal immagrants supporters feel about how they are driving down wages for the working class americans who are traditional democratic voters?
 
Topspin said:
Not a serious law being broken, wonder what the illegal immagrants supporters feel about how they are driving down wages for the working class americans who are traditional democratic voters?
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Top, nothing is ever as simple as "one part of society harmed = bad!". I mean, steel tariffs save steel jobs. But they destroy jobs in steel making industries. There's an oppurtunity cost to everything. And there's a serious oppurtunity cost involved in not taking these immigrants in, and an even greater net negative with spending dozens of billions rounding them all up.
 
Care4all said:
released pedophiles can't live near schools or playgrounds or parks or day care centers etc....at least in some states?
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Not pedophiles. Sex offenders. The vast majority of sex offenders aren't pedophiles. Most have crimes that had little to do with sex (for instance, streaking). And the part of the Georgia law that was controversial was the fact that it banned sex offenders around bus stops, which basically made most of Georgia unlivable for most of them. There's absolutely no reason for that regulation to be there, and it infringes on an American's natural rights as a citizen to at least be able to own property somewhere in America. Some limits on this right are reasonable - just banning them from owning property everywhere in an entire state isn't.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
I'm curious as to why you think they shouldn't receive social security credit for the amount they've paid into the system -- your point (2). If I happen to commit some crime or another while I'm paying into the system I don't lose my SS credits.
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I'm trying to at least appeal to the restrictionists, Ornot. They weren't citiznes at the time, and the restrictionists would find giving them the credits objectable for that reason. It's far preferable to hauling them all off, no?
 
Desh said:
Those are citizens who have proved themselves danger to others.

The Public does have a right to protect itsself.
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I wouldn't disagree with banning pedophiles, or maybe rapists also, from living within a few thousand feet of a school or other place like that. But banning plain sex offenders, no matter what the crime (and some crimes that label you a "sex offender" are pretty stupid to put into that category), from basically living in an entire state is beyond the realm of reason.

And sex offenders have half the recividism rate of other felons. Why are you being so selective? Why not ban murderers from living within a square mile of another person?
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Sure, but so have illegal lane changes on the freeway. In fact, I suspect that illegal lane changes have killed far more people than has the practice of hijacking the SS numbers of dead people -- which is how it's usually done.

Not all laws are equally important. Surely we can all stipulate to this, can't we? Furthermore, there are, in almost every class of violation, potentially extenuating circumstances. If there weren't there would be no need for judges, nor for sentencing hearings of any kind.

What laws have these illegal immigrants transgressed, really? I mean, come on: it's not like they've killed anyone or robbed any homes. They've fudged some bureaucratic red tape, yes. Who hasn't? I certainly have, from time to time.
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Really, you are going to equate identity theft to illegal lane change? Your argument lost all its base and logic at this point and went off into inanity. Identity theft is a real crime with serious consequences.
 
Damocles said:
Really, you are going to equate identity theft to illegal lane change? Your argument lost all its base and logic at this point and went off into inanity. Identity theft is a real crime with serious consequences.
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Spoken just like a typical serial illegal lane changer!

Ornot makes the point that illegal lane changing probably does cost lives, identity theft does not.

However, I do not dismiss identity theft. That's serious stuff if it happens to you, and it can mess up your whole life for a time. I don't think it can ruin your life, but it causes serious problems in it. I also don't know if most phony SS #'s come from dead people. (in which case I would consider the crime to be a trifling one). I knew someone who had some problems with the IRS because someone was falsely using his SS# to work under. Again, that can be cleared up, and the IRS is likely to be more interested in the person using your SS # than in you. But...I still wouldn't want to deal with that crap.
 
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