NATO’s Scorched Earth in Ukraine | Consortium News


It is interesting that the Pravda of the Revolution has been embarrished into telling a little truth.
 
Lightbringer said:
Not for much longer, we are de-coupling from them.
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Yes, Russia is becoming a rump state economically.
Their biggest trading partners besides China were in the EU before the war. And most of that was oil and gas.
All they have is China, Turkey and India to buy their gas - at a discount.
 
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PostmodernProphet said:
Nordberg said:
You actually typed that? Biden and Putin are not in a cage match. We are helping by supplying the arms that Ukraine needs. Why would Putin fear any world leaders and why would that make a difference in the Putin war of choice?
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when the world leaders are weak and ignore his aggression he shouldn't fear them and it won't make a difference in his aggression......you are just confirming what Tinker said about Biden......
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As I've mentioned before, it was NATO members, particularly the U.S., whose aggression was instrumental in getting Russia to intervene in the Ukraine civil war. The 2 factors was NATO expansion eastward despite U.S. officials' promises of not going on inch east of Germany and the renewed attack on the Donbass Republics just days before Russia finally decided to intervene in the Ukraine civil war. For more information on the second part, I made a thread that references an article from a former Swiss Intelligence Officer who gets into the details:

Former Swiss Intelligence Officer blows the whistle on West's Ukraine War Narrative | justplainpolitics.com
 
Nordberg said:
Tinkerpeach said:
Supplying arms does no good if you have no soldiers left to use them.

Ukraine is running out of people.
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Oh, the entire population of Ukraine is under fire from Putin's war of choice.
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That really depends on how one defines Ukraine, doesn't it? I suspect you define Ukraine as the borders it had back before Euromaidan, when Crimea was still part of it. Crimea never fired on Russia. After Euromaidan, they held a referendum back in 2014 to rejoin Russia, the side voting to rejoin Russia won by a landslide and Russia agreed to let them rejoin and promptly annexed them.

The Donbass regions of Donetsk and Lugansk also held referendums after Euromaidan wherein they voted for more independence from the new anti Russian government in Kyiv. Kyiv responded by conducting a special military operation on them, which turned into an 8 year long civil war. Russia tried to work out some lasting peace agreements via the Minsk and Minsk II accords, but Ukraine and their western Allies just used those to buy more time to build up the Ukrainian army and try to retake the Donbass regions (now calling themselves the Donbass Republics) by force.

Russia certainly didn't fire on the Donbass Republics. In point of fact, the Donbass Republics specifically requested Russian aid when they were being attacked yet again by the Ukrainian military, starting on February 16th. Russian Parliament had already urged Putin to recognize the Donbass Republics the day before, on February 15th, concerned that all those Ukrainian troops amassing on the Donbass Republics' borders weren't there just for show, but Putin initially refused. It was only after around 5 days of heavy bombardment by the Ukrainian military that Putin relented and recognized them on February 21st. Even then, I suspect Putin had been hoping that simply recognizing them as independent Republics might be enough and Ukraine would back off. Ukraine didn't though, just kept on bombarding the Donbass Republics, which finally led to Putin starting his military operation on February 24th.

Nordberg said:
They are fighting on Ukrainian turf.
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Yes, but I think it's important to note that a lot of the Ukrainians fighting weren't fighting in the regions they were raised in, but rather in the eastern regions. Until you recognize the fact that there has been a divide between western and eastern Ukraine, I doubt you will ever understand the culpability of western Ukraine and its western allies in fomenting this war between Russia and Ukraine.

Nordberg said:
It is Russia that has limitations on soldiers. Russia has had a couple of call-ups and is throwing poorly trained troops into a battle that they really do not want to be in.
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As I've noted in the past, I've never been a fan of conscription, so I certainly wasn't a fan of Putin's partial mobilization of Russian males. That being said, Zelensky forbid working age males from leaving Ukraine the day after Russia's military operation started.

And as to untrained, from what I've seen, it's Ukraine that's been doing more of that recently:

**

May 25, 2023

Ukraine sent untrained recruits into the battle of Bakhmut to save its professional soldiers for an expected counteroffensive, The Wall Street Journal reported Thursday.

The Journal spoke with men who were part of a small group that was sent into Bakhmut, which became known as the meat grinder, just a few days after being mobilized.

Out of 16 men in the group of draftees, 11 were either killed or captured. The Journal described them as “mostly poor men from villages in the northeastern Kharkiv region, many of them unemployed, doing odd jobs as handymen or shift work at factories in the regional capital.”

Some of the men had military training years or decades ago, but none had combat experience. A few of them threatened to refuse orders when they were told they were being sent to the frontlines on February 21, citing a lack of training, but they ultimately went.

One man, Vladyslav Yudin, told the Journal that he told a sergeant major that he had never fired or even held a gun before. “Bakhmut will teach you,” Yudin was told.

The men participated in brutal house-to-house combat in Bakhmut. Many of them are presumed dead, but their families are still holding out hope that they were captured by the Russians and are still alive.

The men’s accounts match what Ukrainians fighting on the frontlines had been telling the media while the battle was still raging. They told stories of troops being sent in with little support, training, or ammunition.

The Washington Post spoke to a Ukrainian battalion commander in March who said he was being sent fresh recruits who didn’t want to fire their guns because they were afraid of the sound.
**

Source:
Ukraine Sent Poor, Untrained Men Into Bakhmut Meat Grinder to Save Better Forces for Counteroffensive | antiwar.com
 
I guess you commis think we will forget the Russian army marching to the Ukraine border. We wondered if they were going to start a war. Biden told us all, his info was Putin was going in. Putin sent his army into Ukraine and has been waging war ever since. You crazy commies think Ukraine is like a girl being raped. She asked for it.This is Putin's war . he has actually strengthened NATO. He proved that their prime directive to stand against Russian aggression is as valid today as it ever was.
 
Phoenyx said:
As I've mentioned before, it was NATO members, particularly the U.S., whose aggression was instrumental in getting Russia to intervene in the Ukraine civil war.
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yes, you have......it was very stupid for you to have mentioned it.....the only aggression was that of Putin, over and over again.......I am curious......why do you side with Russia against the US?......are you a recent immigrant?.......are you a paid agent for a foreign government?......what's your motive?......
 
Hawkeye10 said:

This is not remotely a stalemate, Russia is killing Ukrainians at somewhere between 1/8 and 1/10 rate, which is the goal. Ukraine is getting slaughtered.
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Agreed. There are some here who don't seem to be catching on to this reality though.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Phoenyx said:
I believe that's what will happen as well. The alternative could mean Armaggedon.
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The children who run Washington are finally trying to negotiate a way out, thing is the Russians have no interest until the Americans accept reality, which they are currently far from.
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Agreed.

Hawkeye10 said:
Former U.S. officials have held secret Ukraine talks with prominent Russians | NBC
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Pretty sad that the only U.S. officials who are willing to seriously talk to Russia on a possible exit strategy to this war are in the former category -.-
 
anonymoose said:
Phoenyx said:
No, I just explained why NATO, despite being a mortal threat to Russia,
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Huh? In what way?
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Nukes. The U.S. was just as leery about having nukes from Russia in Cuba, but people seem to forget about that.

anonymoose said:
Phoenyx said:
No, I just explained why NATO, despite being a mortal threat to Russia, is deciding not to take things to that level. It could very well mean the annihilation of mankind. Fortunately, there are still a few cooler heads in NATO.
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A few??? The infamous war pig, John McCain was the only politician in the U.S. or the world for that matter that I could ever remember advocating war with Russia. FFS, he didn't see a potential war he didn't like. He was a madman.
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We can both agree that it's good that his extreme warmongering is no longer part of the equation. That being said, while there may be no one who's quite so foolhardy as to -advocate- for a war with Russia, what the U.S. is doing now in Ukraine is still pretty foolhardy and might still lead to a nuclear exchange if not armaggedon.

anonymoose said:
Russia for sure has their share of those types. There was talk of taking back Alaska by some of them at the beginning of the war. Fortunately, there are still a few cooler heads in Russia.
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Agreed, Putin amoung them. Putin could have gone to war in the Ukraine a -long- time ago. Nowadays, he's saying that it might well have been better, back when the Ukrainian military wasn't so built up. I suspect he did the right thing by trying to negotiate a lasting peace for 8 years. It speaks to his credentials as someone who wanted to resolve this conflict without going to war for a very long time.

anonymoose said:
Phoenyx said:
That may be what they tell people, but the truth is if NATO vis a vis its strongest member, the U.S., had kept its word to not expand NATO one inch east of Germany, not to mention the U.S.'s role in the coup of the former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, this whole war would probably not have occurred.
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There's really no point in discussing this topic with you anymore.
It's like two different people see the same animal and one swears he's seeing a giraffe, the other swears he sees an elephant.
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Following your analogy, perhaps the 2 parties could explain why they are seeing different animals. Perhaps that's what you're trying to do below...

anonymoose said:
Let's do this for a change...
How would you like to see this conflict end? No, forget that, I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that. Realistically what would be, to you, an acceptable negotiated end to the war?
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I don't live in Ukraine or Russia. I think it's up to them to decide what's acceptable. From what I've read, it appears that Russia might settle for getting to keep the land it's acquired and some peace treaty with what remains of Ukraine. I honestly think it'd be in the best interests of Ukrainians to accept such a deal if it comes up. I believe not doing so will just lead to more deaths with the end result still being the same. Only the more time goes by, the more I think that Russia may take even more Ukrainian territories.
 
anonymoose said:
Yes, Russia is becoming a rump state economically.
Their biggest trading partners besides China were in the EU before the war. And most of that was oil and gas.
All they have is China, Turkey and India to buy their gas - at a discount.
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Many younger people are not aware of how dire things were in the Cold War, for the USSR, which was far bigger and stronger than Russia is now, with far more countries and resources to draw upon.

Shelves bare. Things like automobiles generations behind. Lots of poverty and despair.

Many older Russians do recall.


The younger are about to find out, as Putin's actions greatly diminish the EU need for Russian resources, and makes them dependant on CHina and India who will milk them for all the discount prices they can get.


This war of aggression by Putin has been an abject failure and he owns it. All of it.

He has expanded NATO beyond what anyone in NATO would have imagined. He has put NATo up against Russia's borders in ways that dwarf what it was prior. He has made Russia much poorer and killed off many of their sons? Why? For his personal ego, and because Ukraines growing success, once they kicked Putin and his Oligarchs out was shining the brightest spotlight on how it was Putin and his Oligarchs that were the problem. Something Russian citizens would not be able to not see, as their cousins in Ukraine got more and more wealthy and optimistic while Russia remained stagnated and under performing under Putin.
 
Phoenyx said:
Agreed.



Pretty sad that the only U.S. officials who are willing to seriously talk to Russia on a possible exit strategy to this war are in the former category -.-
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They were acting as agents of the Regime.... what is really sad is that after the Regime was blown off by the Russians they leak it all to Regime Media, highlighting their suckage.
 
Phoenyx said:
Agreed. There are some here who don't seem to be catching on to this reality though.
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The waking up to reality will be brutal for America after so many years of living in delusions and fantasy, after so many years of refusing to learn.

But stupid should hurt, and BIG PAIN is the teacher of last resort.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Phoenyx said:
Could be. I don't think the U.S. is quite at the point that Rome was at when it fell though. Perhaps another decade or 2? Hard to tell at this point.
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America is unrecognizable from just 3-4 years ago....go walk through some of our cities.....this is collapse.
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I decided the subject of America's decline/collapse merited a thread of its own, so I made one and responded to your comment there:

Chris Hedges: The Unraveling of the American Empire | justplainpolitics.com
 
 
Phoenyx said:
Russia tried for 8 years to resolve the civil war in Ukraine,
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Halfheartedly on Putin’s part.
Zelenskyy gave a real effort:

in October 2019 Zelensky announced that he had struck a preliminary deal with the separatists, under which the Ukrainian government would respect elections held in Donbas.
Zelensky had been elected to bring peace. But there were armed elements on both sides who were not ready to make the compromises necessary … they preferred to fight than give one centimetre.’

Zelensky and Putin’s meeting ( Paris on 9 December 2019) made no political progress–nor could it, as Zelensky had already made significant concessions in October .
Putin’s hectoring style did not help. ‘Putin knew how to give orders, but he didn’t know how to negotiate,’ recalled Mendel. ‘For more than two decades, no one had contradicted him, nor had anyone been willing to bring him bad news. This made Putin a weak negotiator. Instead, he used only blackmail and various instruments of war to negotiate.’ 59
Excerpt from page 150, Overreach:
https://www.amazon.com/Overreach-In...?dplnkId=dc8c1a9b-cd33-4388-81b4-9cb3bcab9425
 
anonymoose said:
Halfheartedly on Putin’s part.
Zelenskyy gave a real effort:

in October 2019 Zelensky announced that he had struck a preliminary deal with the separatists, under which the Ukrainian government would respect elections held in Donbas.
Zelensky had been elected to bring peace. But there were armed elements on both sides who were not ready to make the compromises necessary … they preferred to fight than give one centimetre.’

Zelensky and Putin’s meeting ( Paris on 9 December 2019) made no political progress–nor could it, as Zelensky had already made significant concessions in October .
Putin’s hectoring style did not help. ‘Putin knew how to give orders, but he didn’t know how to negotiate,’ recalled Mendel. ‘For more than two decades, no one had contradicted him, nor had anyone been willing to bring him bad news. This made Putin a weak negotiator. Instead, he used only blackmail and various instruments of war to negotiate.’ 59
Excerpt from page 150, Overreach:
https://www.amazon.com/Overreach-In...?dplnkId=dc8c1a9b-cd33-4388-81b4-9cb3bcab9425
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LIAR, he campaigned on peace but within months of the election went the other way as if that was the plan all along.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
America is unrecognizable from just 3-4 years ago....go walk through some of our cities.....this is collapse.
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I would say America's cities are unrecognizable from just 3-4 years ago. A result of not only democrat policies but the people that actually choose to vote in those policies.
Dims have always been the party that was soft on crime, now they basically condone it.
The rest of America outside decaying cities is doing just fine.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
LIAR, he campaigned on that but within months of the election went the other way as if that was the plan all along.
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Read the book.
Until then fasten your seatbelt - tighter and tighter.
Or since things will be getting as bad as you say, just go ahead and eat a bullet if you're not going to obey the Han and Russians.
 
The fact that the West admits that the Minsk Accords was a sham to give NATO more time to arm Ukraine for the intended assault on Russia and the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine proves that Ukraine wanted peace propaganda is just that.
 
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