New biography of Plato

NiftyNiblick said:
I don't know much about Plato, I have to admit.

He's the guy who invented the Platonic relationship, right?
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Platonic love is an idea that comes from Plato, in an indirect way.

He is most famous for the concept of ideal forms. The idea there are ultimate, higher truths which are only dimly represented by our experiences and opinions in human life.
 
Cypress said:
The foremost philosopher of the atheists, Frederich Nietzsche, wrote that Plato's concepts of eternal spirit, ideal forms, ultimate truth, and his abstraction of The Good were foolish and misguided. Nietzsche complained that Christianity was just Platonism for the masses.
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Frederich was dark, brilliant and not a little nuts. Doing the math, his greatest book, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, came out 1892 but was written in the early 1880s, late into the Industrial Age. Points also addressed by Kark Marx in Das Kapital which came out as series from 1867 until 1883. Mechanization bothered a lot of people in those days and feared the machine taking over humans. Similar to the current AI concerns. Frederich seems to have crossed the line from genius into madness around that time.

Frederich seems to be a favorite of atheists, but he still believed in supernatural forces. In a way, he was simply repeating the ancient proverb "God helps those who help themselves."...along with the Zen quote, "If you see Buddha on the road, kill him!" LOL

He was more concerned about mankind pushing forward rather than waiting for a supernatural parent to save and protect us. A thought in which I agree.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18575181/
Abstract

Background: Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900), one of the most profound and influential modern philosophers, suffered since his very childhood from severe migraine. At 44 he had a mental breakdown ending in a dementia with total physical dependence due to stroke. From the very beginning, Nietzsche's dementia was attributed to a neurosyphilitic infection. Recently, this tentative diagnosis has become controversial....

...Conclusions: Friedrich Nietzsche's disease consisted of migraine, psychiatric disturbances, cognitive decline with dementia, and stroke. Despite the prevalent opinion that neurosyphilis caused Nietzsche's illness, there is lack of evidence to support this diagnosis. Cerebral autosomal dominant arteriopathy with subcortical infarcts and leukoencephalopathy (CADASIL) accounts for all the signs and symptoms of Nietzsche's illness. This study adds new elements to the debate and controversy about Nietzsche's illness. We discuss former diagnoses, comment on the history of a diagnostic mistake, and integrate for the first time Nietzsche's medical problems.
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Doc Dutch said:
Frederich was dark, brilliant and not a little nuts. Doing the math, his greatest book, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, came out 1892 but was written in the early 1880s, late into the Industrial Age. Points also addressed by Kark Marx in Das Kapital which came out as series from 1867 until 1883. Mechanization bothered a lot of people in those days and feared the machine taking over humans. Similar to the current AI concerns. Frederich seems to have crossed the line from genius into madness around that time.

Frederich seems to be a favorite of atheists, but he still believed in supernatural forces. In a way, he was simply repeating the ancient proverb "God helps those who help themselves."...along with the Zen quote, "If you see Buddha on the road, kill him!" LOL

He was more concerned about mankind pushing forward rather than waiting for a supernatural parent to save and protect us. A thought in which I agree.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18575181/
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That sounds about right. He thought Christian ethics were a type of slave mentality that really only benefited the the unwashed masses but were a roadblock to the superior person who wasn't content with waiting for salvation but wanted to make this life into a work of art.
 
Tinkerpeach said:
The more time that goes by the less accurate biographies become

The older ones are much more reliable
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I disagree. Many later biographies are based on sources unknown to earlier researchers. Some of those just fill in blanks or give different interpretations to earlier writings.

Some are based on new discoveries or scientific methods (DNA).
 
Flash said:
I disagree. Many later biographies are based on sources unknown to earlier researchers. Some of those just fill in blanks or give different interpretations to earlier writings.

Some are based on new discoveries or scientific methods (DNA).
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I think a "biography" of Plato is just a marketing strategy to sell a book.

Despite the quantity of material Plato composed, he disclosed almost nothing about himself personally

The details we have from secondary sources range in quality, and there really isn't enough to fill an entire full length book about his life.

That's why when it comes to Plato, most of the discussion revolves around his ideas
 
Cypress said:
That sounds about right. He thought Christian ethics were a type of slave mentality that really only benefited the the unwashed masses but were a roadblock to the superior person who wasn't content with waiting for salvation but wanted to make this life into a work of art.
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Frederich going after God was also a subtle way around monarchism, which Euro nations had long protected by force.

Monarchism is the institutionalization of racism; superiority by birthright and blood. Both Frederich and Karl, plus others were seeking to free mankind from slavery be it theocratic, monarchistic or imperial. The problem, IMO, was natural human limitations and inclinations. WWI combined the latest human technology with thousands of years of human nature.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Frederich going after God was also a subtle way around monarchism, which Euro nations had long protected by force.

Monarchism is the institutionalization of racism; superiority by birthright and blood. Both Frederich and Karl, plus others were seeking to free mankind from slavery be it theocratic, monarchistic or imperial. The problem, IMO, was natural human limitations and inclinations. WWI combined the latest human technology with thousands of years of human nature.
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I didn't know about the link to monarchy. I do know Neitzche wasn't a fan of democracy either
 
Cypress said:
I didn't know about the link to monarchy. I do know Neitzche wasn't a fan of democracy either
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I was simply considering the age in which they existed. The carnage of the American Civil War would certainly have been depressing for any philosophers of the time.
 
Someone mentioned "platonic relation" and it reminded me of a recent article about the relation of passion to reason in Plato:

"Sex, it seems, is out of the question. This is the halfway point that bothers readers to death, because Socrates’s vision seems at once too much and too little to everyone at once. As solution, it manages to please neither the lover nor the nonlover. Who, after all, could bear to live like Socrates, without knowledge, without love’s consummation, without equal and without peer?"

https://hedgehogreview.com/issues/by-theory-possessed/articles/desire-in-the-cave
 
Doc Dutch said:
I was simply considering the age in which they existed. The carnage of the American Civil War would certainly have been depressing for any philosophers of the time.
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I've only read "Beyond Good and Evil", so the entire Nietzhe canon is obviously beyond all of us.
 
BidenPresident said:
Someone mentioned "platonic relation" and it reminded me of a recent article about the relation of passion to reason in Plato:

"Sex, it seems, is out of the question. This is the halfway point that bothers readers to death, because Socrates’s vision seems at once too much and too little to everyone at once. As solution, it manages to please neither the lover nor the nonlover. Who, after all, could bear to live like Socrates, without knowledge, without love’s consummation, without equal and without peer?"

https://hedgehogreview.com/issues/by-theory-possessed/articles/desire-in-the-cave
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Asexuality is recognized by the LGBTQ community.

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/12...m-asexual-quiz-everything-else-youre-curious/
Asexuality is different from celibacy in that celibacy is seen as something you choose whereas asexuality is seen as something you are, more of an intrinsic identity. As such, the “A” in the ever-growing LGBTQIA acronym actually stands for “asexual” (and not “ally” as some people wrongly assume). The asexual community even has its own asexual Pride flag
 
BidenPresident said:
Someone mentioned "platonic relation" and it reminded me of a recent article about the relation of passion to reason in Plato:

"Sex, it seems, is out of the question. This is the halfway point that bothers readers to death, because Socrates’s vision seems at once too much and too little to everyone at once. As solution, it manages to please neither the lover nor the nonlover. Who, after all, could bear to live like Socrates, without knowledge, without love’s consummation, without equal and without peer?"

https://hedgehogreview.com/issues/by-theory-possessed/articles/desire-in-the-cave
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If I am remembering correctly, it was Plato's "Symposium" where Socrates and his interlocutors were discussing the concept of an ideal love. Socrates version was a kind of ideal love based on pure conciousness, rather than sexual or romantic love
 
BidenPresident said:
Homer and Sophocles are ancient pieces of literature well documented.
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Those aren't the oldest, and they tend to reflect our western bias.

The playwright Aeschylus predates Sophocles, and the Indian Vedas and the Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh are older than the Homeric epics.
 
Cypress said:
I've only read "Beyond Good and Evil", so the entire Nietzhe canon is obviously Beyond all of us.
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The only one I dragged my ass through was Thus Spoke Zarathustra over 4 decades ago. I briefly toyed with a philosophy major before switching to Psych...literally after the first quarter as a Junior at a University after earning an AA at a community college.

In my case, a degree was a means to an end so the actual degree didn't matter much once I realized I didn't have the brain for calculus and, subsequently, aeronautical engineering.
 
Doc Dutch said:
The only one I dragged my ass through was Thus Spoke Zarathustra over 4 decades ago. I briefly toyed with a philosophy major before switching to Psych...literally after the first quarter as a Junior at a University after earning an AA at a community college.

In my case, a degree was a means to an end so the actual degree didn't matter much once I realized I didn't have the brain for calculus and, subsequently, aeronautical engineering.
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psychology is a respectable degree

For me, those German philosophers are a challenging read.

Plato seems a lot more accessible to the non specialist. At least I thought The Republic was an accessible read.
 
Doc Dutch said:
The only one I dragged my ass through was Thus Spoke Zarathustra over 4 decades ago. I briefly toyed with a philosophy major before switching to Psych...literally after the first quarter as a Junior at a University after earning an AA at a community college.

In my case, a degree was a means to an end so the actual degree didn't matter much once I realized I didn't have the brain for calculus and, subsequently, aeronautical engineering.
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So anyone here actually read the New biography of Plato?
 
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