New Testament scholarship

[Cypress]

These are five widely accepted historical facts among scholars about Jesus.
Any interpretation of the key events of the New Testament has to be able explain these facts. I have about four hypotheses myself that might explain the facts.


1) The death of Jesus of Nazareth by Roman crucifixion around AD 30.

2) His internment in a tomb by a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin.

3) The discovery by a group of his female followers three days after the crucifixion that his tomb was empty.

4) Thereafter various individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus after his crucifixion and entombment.

5) The disciples came to believe that God had raised Jesus from the dead.

 

[serenity]

These are five widely accepted historical facts among scholars about Jesus.
Any interpretation of the key events of the New Testament has to be able explain these facts. I have about four hypotheses myself that might explain the facts.


1) The death of Jesus of Nazareth by Roman crucifixion around AD 30.

2) His internment in a tomb by a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin.

3) The discovery by a group of his female followers three days after the crucifixion that his tomb was empty.

4) Thereafter various individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus after his crucifixion and entombment.

5) The disciples came to believe that God had raised Jesus from the dead.

how could Jesus be crucified 30 years after death?

 

[Cypress]

1) The death of Jesus of Nazareth by Roman crucifixion around AD 30.

how could Jesus be crucified 30 years after death?

So you claim Jesus was executed in 0 (zero) AD.

 

[EdwinA]

At the time, in order to be acknowledged as a Rabbi one had to be 33.

Nothing needs to be 'explained', all that is needed to is to have some clue about the social orders and Jewish culture and law at the time. A thought reading of Joachim Jeremias' Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus and its exhaustive footnotes of Jewish sources will alone make a lot of things clear that confuse modern people.

Jerusalem in the time of Jesus : an investigation into economic and social conditions during the New Testament period : Jeremias, Joachim, 1900-1979 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xv, 405 pages : 24 cm

archive.org

Just the bibliography of Jewish sources alone make it well worth owning a copy.

Darrell Bock's The Missing Gospels has a lot of useful info on the validity of the books of the NT for laymen and the case for the orthodox version of the books being the originals is solid, and not just a bunch of verses composed much later. the drawback is he was too lazy to make an index.

 

[serenity]

So you claim Jesus was executed in 0 (zero) AD.

No, the Gregorian calendar established in Oct 1582 and that is when the crucifixion of Jesus became year 0 upon his resurrection Easter Sunday. International dateline(1884) or 0/360 degrees longitude of 24/7 labeling each next rotation 7 different names 52 weeks a year. 52,000 years was within the Mayan calendar universal reset phasing of the polarities in the universe.

Einstein did his nobel peace prize relative time theory in the 20th century AD.

Remember Roman empire became the first Global church of the New Testament/New World Order in the 4th century AD. Prior to that they created mythologies life wasn't self evident daily. Paganism created gods and Satan were pure intellectual energy without a host ancestor in physical form.

Hebrews and a few other cultures created a one God concept. This was just the western hemisphere or PM side of the planet Eastern hemisphere is AM or midnight to noon each rotation lifetimes are eternally separated each heartbeat forward since arriving a fertilized cell, now.

Father son and holy ghost are three consecutive generation gaps like yesterday, today, and tomorrow relative time. Equally applied is mother daughter holy ghost.

Need I continue having my genetic eternally separated brain by compounding chromosomes keep debunking humanity's invented social mind sets that life isn't self evident time living ancestrally here by thermodynamic principles applied to both periodic elements and combined chromosomes of steaming ancestral position's DNA used against individuals in a court of law same way their vernacular tribalism is used against anyone defying social consensus of the geographical area occupying space daily.

 

[Cypress]

that is when the crucifixion of Jesus became year 0

There are no reputable historians of antiquity who agree with you that Jesus was executed "in the year 0"

 

[Cypress]

At the time, in order to be acknowledged as a Rabbi one had to be 33.

Nothing needs to be 'explained', all that is needed to is to have some clue about the social orders and Jewish culture and law at the time. A thought reading of Joachim Jeremias' Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus and its exhaustive footnotes of Jewish sources will alone make a lot of things clear that confuse modern people.

Jerusalem in the time of Jesus : an investigation into economic and social conditions during the New Testament period : Jeremias, Joachim, 1900-1979 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xv, 405 pages : 24 cm

archive.org

Just the bibliography of Jewish sources alone make it well worth owning a copy.

Darrell Bock's The Missing Gospels has a lot of useful info on the validity of the books of the NT for laymen and the case for the orthodox version of the books being the originals is solid, and not just a bunch of verses composed much later. the drawback is he was too lazy to make an index.

Most people make the mistake of looking at the resurrection story in the rear view mirror with a 21st century perspective.

That's probably how the accounts of the resurrection attestations get chalked up as intentional fabrications, or were written up as later legendary accounts in some modern interpretations.

It really does have to be explained in it's own context within the Jewish tradition of first century Palestine.

 

[Yakuda]

Not sure what you're getting at here. The very earliest Christians were willing to die before denying that Jesus rose from the dead. Do you know a lot of people willing to die for an idea they arent sure is true?

 

[Cypress]

Not sure what you're getting at here. The very earliest Christians were willing to die before denying that Jesus rose from the dead. Do you know a lot of people willing to die for an idea they arent sure is true?

That's a point I made previously on another thread. I don't think people are willing to die for a lie they fabricated.

But it doesn't rule out the possibility Jesus didn't die on the cross. He could have been taken down off the cross while comatose, and recovered three days later.

That could have seemed miraculous to observers.

The Jewish historian Josephus heard of two cases where people had survived crucifixion. In Mark's gospel Pontius Pilate seems surprised that Jesus died so quickly and was taken of the cross after only a few hours.

That's just a possibility, I think other options have to be recognized and discussed

 

[Yakuda]

That's a point I made previously on another thread. I don't think people are willing to die for a lie they fabricated.

But it doesn't rule out the possibility Jesus didn't die on the cross. He could have been taken down off the cross while comatose, and recovered three days later.

That could have seemed miraculous to observers.

The Jewish historian Josephus heard of two cases where people had survived crucifixion. In Mark's gospel Pontius Pilate seems surprised that Jesus died so quickly and was taken of the cross after only a few hours.

That's just a possibility, I think other options have to be recognized and discussed.

There isn't any reason to believe Jesus didn't die on the cross. Pilates surprise is noted but not relevant. It's just as likely that Jesus had accomplished what he was sent to do and mercifully God allowed him to not experience any unnecessary suffering.

 

[Yakuda]

That's a point I made previously on another thread. I don't think people are willing to die for a lie they fabricated.

But it doesn't rule out the possibility Jesus didn't die on the cross. He could have been taken down off the cross while comatose, and recovered three days later.

That could have seemed miraculous to observers.

The Jewish historian Josephus heard of two cases where people had survived crucifixion. In Mark's gospel Pontius Pilate seems surprised that Jesus died so quickly and was taken of the cross after only a few hours.

That's just a possibility, I think other options have to be recognized and discussed.

There isn't any reason to believe Jesus didn't die on the cross. Pilates surprise is noted but not relevant. It's just as likely that Jesus had accomplished what he was sent to do and mercifully God allowed him to not experience any unnecessary

 

[Cypress]

There isn't any reason to believe Jesus didn't die on the cross. Pilates surprise is noted but not relevant. It's just as likely that Jesus had accomplished what he was sent to do and mercifully God allowed him to not experience any unnecessary suffering.

I'm just looking at all hypotheses.

I reject the hypotheses that the attestations of the resurrection were conspiratorial fabrications, or later legendary stories added to the canon. Those do not comport with the established facts.

The other hypotheses I have have are:
Mass hallucinations
Disciples were mentally ill
A miracle occurred.
Jesus had a near death experience and was removed from the cross while comatose.

I don't think hallucinations or mental illness are plausible or have much explanatory power.

That leaves a miracle or a near death experience. NDE is the most rationally accessible explanation at face value.

 

[Yakuda]

I'm just looking at all hypotheses.

I reject the hypotheses that the attestations of the resurrection were conspiratorial fabrications, or later legendary stories added to the canon. Those do not comport with the established facts.

The other hypotheses I have have are:
Mass hallucinations
Disciples were mentally ill
A miracle occurred.
Jesus had a near death experience and was removed from the cross while comatose.

I don't think hallucinations or mental illness are plausible or have much explanatory power.

That leaves a miracle or a near death experience. NDE is the most rationally accessible explanation.

I don't think a miracle can be ruled out. Look at Kamala harris. Became VP of the US then a presidential candidate even though she couldnt win one primary when she ran for president.

Besides pilates surprise and a guess what other evidence do you have for a Jesus being taken comatose from the cross.

 

[Phantasmal]

Most people make the mistake of looking at the resurrection story in the rear view mirror with a 21st century perspective.

That's probably how the accounts of the resurrection attestations get chalked up as intentional fabrications, or were written up as later legendary accounts in some modern interpretations.

It really does have to be explained in its own context within the Jewish tradition of first century Palestine

The question is, were these actual physical manifestations of Jesus or “grief visions” ?

I do not believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus or his divinity, and there is no first hand testimony to the physical resurrection of Jesus, so I think grief accounted for the visions of Jesus.

GodMen and resurrection stories were very popular during this period of history.

 

[Cypress]

I don't think a miracle can be ruled out. Look at Kamala harris. Became VP of the US then a presidential candidate even though she couldnt win one primary when she ran for president.

Besides pilates surprise and a guess what other evidence do you have for a Jesus being taken comatose from the cross.

I'm agnostic about a miracle. I just can't justify it scientifically.

I think an NDE explains all the established facts in the OP, while remaining in the realm of the medically possible.

Nothing about ancient history can be proven to 100 percent certainty. But Josephus' attestation that people did survive crucifixion, and the gospel account that Jesus was taken off the cross after only six hours is fairly decent circumstantial evidence to me.

 

[Cypress]

The question is, were these actual physical manifestations of Jesus or “grief visions” ?

I do not believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus or his divinity, and there is no first hand testimony to the physical resurrection of Jesus, so I think grief accounted for the visions of Jesus.

GodMen and resurrection stories were very popular during this period of history.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I don't think mass grief hallucinations have a lot of explanatory power. Besides, people could have just checked on the tomb or place of internment to see if Jesus' body was still there. Also, contextually the resurrection of a single person did not fit Jewish first century belief either.

Paul is a primary source for what the eyewitness disciples saw. He knew and was in direct contact with Peter and James. They certainly would have known if Paul was lying about what they told him. There is also decent circumstantial evidence that Gospel of Mark is an account of what Peter saw and taught, as recorded by his secretary Mark.

 

[Yakuda]

I'm agnostic about a miracle. I just can't justify it scientifically.

I think an NDE explains all the established facts in the OP, while remaining in the realm of the medically possible.

Nothing about ancient history can be proven to 100 percent certainty. But Josephus' attestation that people did survive crucifixion, and the gospel account that Jesus was taken off the cross after only six hours is fairly decent circumstantial evidence to me.

That doesnt mean miracles don't happen.

Assuming "medically possible" is the only way things could happen. If Jesus is who he claims to be then that's not the only way things could happen.

First clearly the Romans would eventually break the legs of someone who lingered too long not out of mercy but to clear the cross for the next victim. If by some "miracle" however a person survived their crucifixion I bet the Romans finished the job some other way.

 

[Phantasmal]

Thanks for your thoughts.

I don't think mass grief hallucinations have a lot of explanatory power. Besides, people could have just checked on the tomb or place of internment to see if Jesus's body was still there. The Resurrection of a single person did not fit Jewish first century belief either.

Paul is a primary source for what the eyewitness disciples saw. He knew and was in direct contact with Peter and James. They certainly would have known if Paul was lying about what they told him. There is decent circumstantial evidence that Gospel of Mark is an account of what Peter saw and taught, as recorded by his secretary Mark.

I do, they were typical for that period and as Erhman states, there weren’t 500 followers of Jesus at that time period in his ministry.

There are no first hand accounts,

Thanks for your thoughts.

I don't think mass grief hallucinations have a lot of explanatory power. Besides, people could have just checked on the tomb or place of internment to see if Jesus' body was still there. Also, contextually the resurrection of a single person did not fit Jewish first century belief either.

Paul is a primary source for what the eyewitness disciples saw. He knew and was in direct contact with Peter and James. They certainly would have known if Paul was lying about what they told him. There is also decent circumstantial evidence that Gospel of Mark is an account of what Peter saw and taught, as recorded by his secretary Mark.

I disagree, most scholars believe that the New Testament writings weren’t first hand accounts and the writers are anonymous.

 

[serenity]

There are no reputable historians of antiquity who agree with you that Jesus was executed "in the year 0"

Wow those saving humanity won't agree with an ancestor explaining how genetics eternally separated those alive today. You do know the magnitude of your self deception keeping your ideas alive as if tomorrow physically exists each rotation of the planet in your static ideology shared for 350 generation gaps in history ancestries were never same person added another generation since their one time series parallel event occurred.

the common link to every alternate intellectual reality is everyone doesn't accept genetics physically eternally separates every reproduction ever native to this atmosphere still functioning the same way before civilization and after extinction of this species self inflicted by those willing to give up understanding how, why, what, where, when, which, whom they been since conceived into a specific ancestral lineage and generation gap so far.

 

[Cypress]

I do, they were typical for that period and as Erhman states, there weren’t 500 followers of Jesus at that time period in his ministry.

There are no first hand accounts,

I disagree, most scholars believe that the New Testament writings weren’t first hand accounts and the writers are anonymous.

Even Erhmann agrees the disciples believe they saw Jesus after the crucifixion. I just saw him in a youtube debate last week. As a historian he just can't say a miracle occurred.

If a mass hallucinations occurred, people could have just checked the tomb or internment site for the body. People weren't anymore gullible then than they are now, Surely someone could have checked.

If we had to rely on first hand, real time, eyewitness testimony, we would have to give up the academic discipline of ancient history. Herodotus was not an eyewitness to the Greco-Persian wars, but he is our best source of information about them. We don't have eyewitness accounts for many of the most famous people of antiquity.

Having someone like Paul who intimately knew the eyewitness disciples and reported what they saw and told him is a good primary source for historical scholarship.

Peter and James were still around when Paul was writing letters and doing his mission work. If Paul were lying about what they told him they would have heard about it.

Paul chose to live a difficult and dangerous life, facing shipwrecks, pirates, and prisons. I don't think he would have risked his life for lies he supposedly put into the mouths of the disciples he knew.

I think an NDE is the most rational explanation that comport to the facts.