New Testament scholarship

[EdwinA]

No, if you actually read the sacred texts of the world, they are not just lists of things you need to do to be a decent person.

They are about spiritual liberation, salvation, fulfilling dharma, achieving Nirvana, coming into concordance with the Tao, living in harmony with Qi and the way of heaven.

Just following a list of rules has nothing to do with ultimate truth, meaning, and purpose.

That's the preferred spin of libertoons and sociopaths and anarchists.

 

[Phantasmal]

Paul never met Jesus, Paul was a Conman an early version of today's TV evangelist​

That’s a good description of him.

 

[Cypress]

That's the preferred spin of libertoons and sociopaths and anarchists.

So conservatives believe Christianity is just a list of rules. Never heard that one before.

Even the patron saint of Christianity, Paul said the Christian life was about faith, not good works.

The catch is, according to doctrine, that genuinely accepting the truth of Christ has ethical consequences and is supposed to change you as a person morally.

 

[Litmus]

For sociopaths, it is. For normal humans, it's Christianity' focus on improving human nature, it's relation to most humans' reality re culture, practical social institutions, a empathy that fits in easily with the long time children must be cared for and nurtured, and the importance of family, a strong morality influencing a reasonably rational court system and customs, and economic stability. No other theology and moral framework works better over all.

As for the 'failures', that is on people, not the theology and the books; it's a compilation of great wisdom and practical advice. Some sociopaths prefer paganism and the silly pseudo-intellectual frauds of 'rational constructivism', the Fatal Conceit as F.A. Hayek refers to the 'technocratic' fallacies popular with modern dumbasses.

yes.

technocratic fallacies.

the phrase that pays.

 

[Phantasmal]

Why does divinity have to be established by VIRGIN birth?

It wasn’t in all communities. I believe it was you who stated the Gospel writers were writing to their communities. The writers who preached to pagans, wrote of the Virgin birth to promote Jesus the God made man, later. they stressed Mary was without original sin.

There were so many different sects of Christianity that Constantine told them to establish one theology, but I’m sure you know all this.

 

[Phantasmal]

You're right.

That's why I think the Virgin birth story can be written off as myth, in contrast to the five generally agreed upon facts I put in the OP. I believe these five facts are agreed upon by consensus among the broad spectrum of scholars, from skeptic Bart Ehrman to Christian apologist William Lane Craig.

I do not find either to be physically possible. They didn’t have artificial insemination back then, and a person who has truly been dead for three days does not come back to life.
The theory of him being in a coma, really stretches it because they would have detected breathing. A person in a coma still breathes.

I have a very hard time accepting supernatural explanations. I’m a very big skeptic.

 

[Cypress]

I do not find either to be physically possible. They didn’t have artificial insemination back then, and a person who has truly been dead for three days does not come back to life.
The theory of him being in a coma, really stretches it because they would have detected breathing. A person in a coma still breathes.

I have a very hard time accepting supernatural explanations. I’m a very big skeptic.

I don't see evidence for the supernatural either. I don't think there was a virgin birth, and it's impossible to cite evidence for a miraculous resurrection.

People being mistaken for dead was known to occur in antiquity. Shallow breathing and heartbeats could sometimes be difficult to detect in a comatose body, without modern medical equipment.

The tradition of Jewish families in antiquity visiting the the family tomb for several days after the presumed death was partly to ensure the deceased was really dead. This is presumably one reason the female followers of Jesus were visiting his tomb on the third day.

In the Middle Ages, deceased people sometimes had a hand bell put in their coffin in case they recovered and woke up after the burial.

Anyway, it's just a theory.

 

[Phantasmal]

I don't see evidence for the supernatural either. I don't think there was a virgin birth, and it's impossible to cite evidence for a miraculous resurrection.

People being mistaken for dead was known to occur in antiquity. Shallow breathing and heartbeats could be difficult to detect in a comatose body, without modern medical equipment.

The tradition of Jewish families in antiquity visiting the the family tomb for several days after the presumed death was partly to ensure the deceased was really dead. This is presumably one reason the female followers of Jesus were visiting his tomb on the third day.

In the Middle Ages, deceased people sometimes had a hand bell put in their coffin in case they recovered and woke up after the burial.

Anyway, it's just a theory.

Yes, I’m aware of mistaken deaths and being buried alive.

My contention is that as Jesus popularity grew, certain supernatural events were added to the story of his life to make him popular with the pagan population because the Jewish communities weren’t buying Jesus as the Mesdiah.

 

[Cypress]

Yes, I’m aware of mistaken deaths and being buried alive.

My contention is that as Jesus popularity grew, certain supernatural events were added to the story of his life to make him popular with the pagan population because the Jewish communities weren’t buying Jesus as the Mesdiah.

I definitely agree that the Gospels were spiced up and embellished, and whatever reliable historical data is in them has to be carefully mined and extracted using the established methods of literary criticism.

 

[Margot]

For sociopaths, it is. For normal humans, it's Christianity' focus on improving human nature, it's relation to most humans' reality re culture, practical social institutions, a empathy that fits in easily with the long time children must be cared for and nurtured, and the importance of family, a strong morality influencing a reasonably rational court system and customs, and economic stability. No other theology and moral framework works better over all.

As for the 'failures', that is on people, not the theology and the books; it's a compilation of great wisdom and practical advice. Some sociopaths prefer paganism and the silly pseudo-intellectual frauds of 'rational constructivism', the Fatal Conceit as F.A. Hayek refers to the 'technocratic' fallacies popular with modern dumbasses.

Lol! Christianity isn't A social club! It's away to avoid
The Passover Angel at the Harvest!

 

[Margot]

I do not find either to be physically possible. They didn’t have artificial insemination back then, and a person who has truly been dead for three days does not come back to life.
The theory of him being in a coma, really stretches it because they would have detected breathing. A person in a coma still breathes.

I have a very hard time accepting supernatural explanations. I’m a very big skeptic.

The hardest thing for the human mind to comprehend, is that YHWH ,came as a man to set things straight! But the very people who had waited the longest, the organized religious leaders conspired to have him murdered by the government!

 

[Margot]

So conservatives believe Christianity is just a list of rules. Never heard that one before.

Even the patron saint of Christianity, Paul said the Christian life was about faith, not good works.

The catch is, according to doctrine, that genuinely accepting the truth of Christ has ethical consequences and is supposed to change you as a person morally.

Trump evangelicals believe they are on a mission from God to Make America Great (white) Again ,and evangelize the Jews,or else!

 

[Daylight63]

It wasn’t in all communities. I believe it was you who stated the Gospel writers were writing to their communities. The writers who preached to pagans, wrote of the Virgin birth to promote Jesus the God made man, later. they stressed Mary was without original sin.

There were so many different sects of Christianity that Constantine told them to establish one theology, but I’m sure you know all this.

We both know this is how the gospels were created, but my point was more to the other poster who seems to want the virgin birth to be important. It is important to many in Christianity, obviously, but I'm curious if anyone ever really thinks about why it would be needed for some traditions of the faith?

 

[Daylight63]

Trump evangelicals believe they are on a mission from God to Make America Great (white) Again ,and evangelize the Jews,or else!

I don't even know if "evangelizing the Jews" is all that important to the US Evangelicals. I think the Jews play an important role in getting back to Israel so the earth can be destroyed. I kind of understand a death cult that fantasizes of something better than what they have now, but it always felt like the Religious Right in the US was far more laser focused on putting the chess pieces in their "magical spots" according to the holy book in order to summon Christ back to the scene, as opposed to trying to actually HELP ANYONE or make ANYTHING BETTER for anyone.

It's sort of like Heaven's Gate without the IT service.

 

[EdwinA]

I definitely agree that the Gospels were spiced up and embellished, and whatever reliable historical data is in them has to be carefully mined and extracted using the established methods of literary criticism.

Rubbish. The orthodox versions are the original compositions.

 

[EdwinA]

It wasn’t in all communities. I believe it was you who stated the Gospel writers were writing to their communities. The writers who preached to pagans, wrote of the Virgin birth to promote Jesus the God made man, later. they stressed Mary was without original sin.

There were so many different sects of Christianity that Constantine told them to establish one theology, but I’m sure you know all this.

Actually by Constantine's victories over the other Tetrarchs were nearing their end the bishops were all in agreement on the vast majority of the books, with some slight differences re the Book of Hebrews, because of its dubious provenance, but was finally included anyway because the writings themselves were considered important. The 'Great Schism' didn't occur until the 11th Century between the Roman Church in the West and the Orthodox in the East. None of the disagreements were over the texts themselves. The western Popes included the Apocrypha as 'canon', i.e. they added to the canon, not disputing the original books.

East–West Schism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Few sects rewrite anything; they disagree over interpretations. Constantine certainly didn't rewrite anything. He was no scholar, and in any event anyone who tried to rewrite anything would have been laughed out of any church by the time Constantine came along.

Some just need to discredit the orthodox writings so they can make up their own pseudo-intellectual rewrites, is all.