Nihilism is Reality

I would however argue against the notion of free will on the basis that human will isn't very free but that is another argument... That life is valuable is something that can be logically demonstrated with a reasoning to support it that is difficult to argue away, no need to hold it as an assumption...

I believe free will is an illusion of the mind but that individuals should be free to follow that illusion. I believe in determinism but just like nihilism I do not let the realization that the universe is deterministic affect my personal philosophy.
 
IHateGovernment said:
I would however argue against the notion of free will on the basis that human will isn't very free but that is another argument... That life is valuable is something that can be logically demonstrated with a reasoning to support it that is difficult to argue away, no need to hold it as an assumption...

I believe free will is an illusion of the mind but that individuals should be free to follow that illusion. I believe in determinism but just like nihilism I do not let the realization that the universe is deterministic affect my personal philosophy.
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I do not think my choices are predetermined by any outside object and therefore that my choices are exactly that. Since the free exercise of choice is basically free will I most definitely believe that we have free will.

I think that often people attempt to absolve themselves from culpability for actions because they believe in nihilism and attempt to argue away consequences by saying that there is no such thing as free will.
 
I do not think my choices are predetermined by any outside object and therefore that my choices are exactly that. Since the free exercise of choice is basically free will I most definitely believe that we have free will.

I think that often people attempt to absolve themselves from culpability for actions because they believe in nihilism and attempt to argue away consequences by saying that there is no such thing as free will.

Well I'm a materialist. Our brains are just made up of quarks and electrons and built up from there. Any action upon a physical object can produce a predicatable response. This happens at the smallest level and is built up from there. Life is but a chemical reaction in series. There is no part of our bodies including our brains that are not subject to these forces. Our responses are dependant upon prior experience, knowledge and neural chemical makeup. Our actions are the end result of a pre-existing energy and matter construct.

I would say that the original configuration of the singularity that resulted in the big bang determined all future events.

Because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and chaos theory we can never know without doubt the outcome of matter energy reactions and thus this knowledge cannot and should not affect our ability to morally judge.

But although it is impossible to know the underlying effect remain there. If choice is not deterministic then where does it come from? I believe that choice outside of determinism would violate conservation of information.
 
I think that often people attempt to absolve themselves from culpability for actions because they believe in nihilism and attempt to argue away consequences by saying that there is no such thing as free will.

I ignore the implications of determinism. Usage of determinism in a moral manner violates the categorical imperative and makes a cohesive society impossible.

As I said I believe in both nihilism and determinism but ignore them as they are not morally useful.
 
IHateGovernment said:
I think that often people attempt to absolve themselves from culpability for actions because they believe in nihilism and attempt to argue away consequences by saying that there is no such thing as free will.

I ignore the implications of determinism. Usage of determinism in a moral manner violates the categorical imperative and makes a cohesive society impossible.

As I said I believe in both nihilism and determinism but ignore them as they are not morally useful.
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If our reaction were based on an equal and opposite action maybe I would agree. But whether I get up from the couch before commercial break, or wait until during the commercial really has no bearing other than my own preference. I don't think the original big bang determined that even mankind would be here, let alone what they might choose to do with themselves at any conceivable moment in time.

I think both are a "myth", that in some cases our reaction could be predicted and predicated on "reaction", but in many other cases what we choose to do is not predetermined. Such as the creation of a Novel.
 
AnyOldIron said:
Nihilists, however, will get to the point where they use nihilism as a bunker buster against any and everything, getting to the absurd point where they will argue that the value a person places on himself or his people is "irrational".

Very good point. I know a few nihilists that use this, but its not hard to argue against. Simply state, 'ok, we accept as an underlying implicit premise that there is no innate meaning in life, but from that we can then build our own meaning, we construct our own and as such it is obstructive to dismiss out of hand on the basis of a premise we both accept.'

It is simply a dead dogma to parrot nihilist truth without presenting further reasoning.....
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Exactly.:clink:

And they think they're so smart too.

nihilist:"But you're fighting for freedom, just like the terrorists are fighting for Islam. "

Me: "Yeah... so... and...."

nihilist: "So you're both the same, because as we all know, no life governing philosophy can be right or wrong."

Me:"So you will gladly convert to Islam, or be put to death? That proposed deal seems good to you?"

nihlist: "I didn't say that."

Me: "But you apparently can find no rational basis for self defense."

nihilist:"well, white people are bad, the world is overpopulated. Valuing life IS a 'radical right wingnut' view".

.... and on and on, until a group of people is talked into suicide.
 
If our reaction were based on an equal and opposite action maybe I would agree. But whether I get up from the couch before commercial break, or wait until during the commercial really has no bearing other than my own preference. I don't think the original big bang determined that even mankind would be here, let alone what they might choose to do with themselves at any conceivable moment in time.

Let disect this action. Where does your preference come from? Preferences do not come out of thin air. They are part of our personality and experience. What forms personality. Personality is determined in the pathways and material layout of our brains. Many factors can be at play perhaps you have to pee or are hungry. If you stay perhaps you are tired. There is a reason you choose. And each reason regresses to another reason that can go all the way back to the big bang.

For example and I'm going to make this purposefully simplistic because I'm not going to review 15 billion years of history.

You get up when the commercial comes on because

You don't like commercials because

You find them uninteresting because

Your interests lie in other things that are surrounding you because

That is an aspect of your personality because

Your life experiences throughout your life as well as the genetic code you possess as well as the chemicals your genes are instructed to produce have that tendency because

It was the result of the combination of the gametes that created you because

Each sucessive generation of life passes down back to the beginning of life

And we can go on back to the big bang at this point.


My point is that every event has a cause. There are no uncaused events. If we go back far enough there is an original cause the big bang. Beyond that time and causality breaks down but that is another matter.

At least all of history after that event is deterministic. All determinism is is the recognition that all events are caused and thus have an origin in that cause.
 
Asshat I don't find that to be a good description of a nihilist because your example of one is actually expressing a belief in many core values.

What you've described is more like hippie liberal douche.
 
IHateGovernment said:
If our reaction were based on an equal and opposite action maybe I would agree. But whether I get up from the couch before commercial break, or wait until during the commercial really has no bearing other than my own preference. I don't think the original big bang determined that even mankind would be here, let alone what they might choose to do with themselves at any conceivable moment in time.

Let disect this action. Where does your preference come from? Preferences do not come out of thin air. They are part of our personality and experience. What forms personality. Personality is determined in the pathways and material layout of our brains. Many factors can be at play perhaps you have to pee or are hungry. If you stay perhaps you are tired. There is a reason you choose. And each reason regresses to another reason that can go all the way back to the big bang.

For example and I'm going to make this purposefully simplistic because I'm not going to review 15 billion years of history.

You get up when the commercial comes on because

You don't like commercials because

You find them uninteresting because

Your interests lie in other things that are surrounding you because

That is an aspect of your personality because

Your life experiences throughout your life as well as the genetic code you possess as well as the chemicals your genes are instructed to produce have that tendency because

It was the result of the combination of the gametes that created you because

Each sucessive generation of life passes down back to the beginning of life

And we can go on back to the big bang at this point.


My point is that every event has a cause. There are no uncaused events. If we go back far enough there is an original cause the big bang. Beyond that time and causality breaks down but that is another matter.

At least all of history after that event is deterministic. All determinism is is the recognition that all events are caused and thus have an origin in that cause.
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However, each of those things are either deliberately thought through and a decision is made, or they are not. Quite literally there is no reason for me to get up from the couch at all, no action to make it happen other than my thought and will to do it.

Nothing pushed me up from the couch. I wasn't hit by a force that made me move. So forth.

Just saying that even getting up at all is predetermined is IMO preposterous. That my decision might be based on previous experience doesn't make it any more or less determined. Basically, same factors different person, no action at all.
 
However, each of those things are either deliberately thought through and a decision is made, or they are not. Quite literally there is no reason for me to get up from the couch at all, no action to make it happen other than my thought and will to do it.

But even thought is deterministic. Your thought is guided by pre-existing conditions and events. There is a cause to your thought.

Just saying that even getting up at all is predetermined is IMO preposterous. That my decision might be based on previous experience doesn't make it any more or less determined. Basically, same factors different person, no action at all.

Determinism has causes. Whether you get up or not in the morning is caused by something else which is also caused regressively. There is a reason and every reason combined in total leads to only one result.
 
IHateGovernment said:
However, each of those things are either deliberately thought through and a decision is made, or they are not. Quite literally there is no reason for me to get up from the couch at all, no action to make it happen other than my thought and will to do it.

But even thought is deterministic. Your thought is guided by pre-existing conditions and events. There is a cause to your thought.

Just saying that even getting up at all is predetermined is IMO preposterous. That my decision might be based on previous experience doesn't make it any more or less determined. Basically, same factors different person, no action at all.

Determinism has causes. Whether you get up or not in the morning is caused by something else which is also caused regressively. There is a reason and every reason combined in total leads to only one result.
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The determining factor in my thought that it is not predetermined is that the reasons are not relativistic. I do not get up because the boom happened. I get up because I choose to and haven't yet died. That there are reasons that I get up are because I choose to define importance for myself. Quite literally without our choices, were we inert, there would not be an action.

Simply because there is experience and thought, or because thought is caused by an electrical current still does not determine the actions of a being that chooses what it will do at that particular moment rather than only reacting to an effect of relativism. The only thing that would get my body to move were we inert would be an outside, not internal determined effect.
 
The determining factor in my thought that it is not predetermined is that the reasons are not relativistic. I do not get up because the boom happened. I get up because I choose to and haven't yet died. That there are reasons that I get up are because I choose to define importance for myself. Quite literally without our choices, were we inert, there would not be an action.

Your choice which comes from thought is the result of chemical reactions in your brain that are the result of previous events.

Would you assert that thoughts are not caused.

Simply because there is experience and thought, or because thought is caused by an electrical current still does not determine the actions of a being that chooses what it will do at that particular moment rather than only reacting to an effect of relativism. The only thing that would get my body to move were we inert would be an outside, not internal determined effect.

We are not islands of isolation from the natural world. All events and reactions that occur within our brains which are just material is the result of natural processes. The chemical processes that create out thought are cause by earlier events which can be taken back to 1 original event.

There is nothing new in the universe all the energy and matter is changing shape but that change of shape is determined by the status directly preceding it.
 
Once again, even though it is a chemical reaction that reaction does not control the result of the thought. That there can be several outcomes alone determines that a choice is made, even if they are limited to those in our experience.

The same chemical reaction outside my body would not make even one iota of difference other than the reaction. The same chemical reaction inside your body rather than mine nets a different result because you are more than just the simple chemical reaction. As I said, some things would be predetermined, others not so much. Were we inert objects subject only to relativism I would agree all of our "action" is predetermined and predictable.
 
Once again, even though it is a chemical reaction that reaction does not control the result of the thought. That there can be several outcomes alone determines that a choice is made, even if they are limited to those in our experience.

Not alone there are many influences not a single one however there are causes to thoughts and causes to the results of them. Causality also put into motion our choice to act on thought.

The same chemical reaction outside my body would not make even one iota of difference other than the reaction.

But if it is outside your body the circumstances are not the same and we have no reason to expect the same result.

The same chemical reaction inside your body rather than mine nets a different result because you are more than just the simple chemical reaction.

I think you are misunderstanding me if you think I mean it is the chemical reaction alone. It is not possible to have the same reaction anyway because every neural cortex is unique however the underlying fractal pattern creating the neural cortex is caused by chemicals which are called to be produced by our genetic sequencing.

As I said, some things would be predetermined, others not so much.

Not so much or not at all?

Were we inert objects subject only to relativism I would agree all of our "action" is predetermined and predictable.

What is the demarcation between an inert object and one that is not. Are we not simply more sophisticated objects than those we label as inert. It is my assertion that nothing is inert and thus because of that is subject to determinism.
 
Damocles said:
I do not think my choices are predetermined by any outside object and therefore that my choices are exactly that. Since the free exercise of choice is basically free will I most definitely believe that we have free will.

I think that often people attempt to absolve themselves from culpability for actions because they believe in nihilism and attempt to argue away consequences by saying that there is no such thing as free will.
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Whether or not there is "true" free will would really be irrelevant, since under determinism any decision that you would make would be the one your determined to make, and you would have no way to tell what was determined for you. There is no such thing as a "Destiny" even under determinism. You shouldn't actively try to change your life to meet some sort of "destiny".
 
Watermark said:
Whether or not there is "true" free will would really be irrelevant, since under determinism any decision that you would make would be the one your determined to make, and you would have no way to tell what was determined for you. There is no such thing as a "Destiny" even under determinism. You shouldn't actively try to change your life to meet some sort of "destiny".
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When did I, or anybody else for that matter, suggest that we follow a "destiny"? I'm not saying that nobody did, but I know I certainly didn't.
 
Watermark said:
Whether or not there is "true" free will would really be irrelevant, since under determinism any decision that you would make would be the one your determined to make, and you would have no way to tell what was determined for you. There is no such thing as a "Destiny" even under determinism. You shouldn't actively try to change your life to meet some sort of "destiny".
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Maybe change is predestined? From my perpective, change is the only constant. But sometimes, the more things change, the more they stay the same. I'm not changing the topic, it's the same.
 
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