Nixon released his returns under audit. Why doesnt tRump?

Hello T. A. Gardner,

I concur. Polite, civil discourse is always best.

Glad to hear it. Thank you.

As to your two points:

The first, Trump might be a liar, or he might have changed his mind on releasing them. Either way, he's also now a politician so lying would seem to be part of the job description if you ask me. If, instead, he changed his mind, that's his Right as it is with anyone else.

Conjecture.

The second is something of a smear as it paints with a very broad brush. Personally, I could care less about Trump's tax returns. I'd rather see his college transcripts, as I would with Obama. Anyway this point, as you have made it, makes something of a logical fallacy in itself. It is a fallacy of composition in that it makes a premise and then connects it to a larger group or pattern without proof.
To make this claim first, you would have to be able to show that a majority--at a minimum-- of Trump "enablers" hold such a position regarding his taxes and then how that is carried over to other areas.
I see Trump's handling of the COVID-19 thing as a separate issue in this case since arguing that he "totally botch(ed)" it is essentially Proof of a Negative demand since we really don't know what the alternative outcomes would have been.

The list of DT fans who hold him accountable for lying about releasing his returns is a short one. I found 2.

Republicans in the Senate want Trump to release his tax returns: "It'd be good for the country"
Trump has falsely claimed he cannot release his tax returns, because he is being audited by the IRS


If he 'changed his mind' then he would need to make such a public announcement. Instead, he lied again, claiming that he could not release his taxes while under audit. But there is no such restriction.
 
Hello T. A. Gardner,

No. I want to see the transcripts. If, for sake of argument, Obama took all "fluff" courses and the easy stuff while Trump took nuclear engineering with physics and calculus then I'd argue that Obama is probably the less intelligent and mentally capable. Of course, that's an obvious exaggeration but it makes the point.
When I went to college many decades ago, in engineering there was a joke going around. It had an integration where the gpa went from 4.0 to 0 as a function of Major that went from Engineering and Science to Business to Liberal Arts to Fine Arts. Us engineering and science students thought of the liberal arts / fine arts side of campus as a sort of kindergarten where the stupid hung out.

As for law school, I contemptuously call that a "Simple liberal arts graduate degree." The best and brightest are not usually lawyers.

Yes, I have heard both speak.

Obama sounds like one of those travelling Southern revival tent preachers working the crowd. He's a slick talker who you shouldn't believe a word coming out of his mouth but be concerned about his hand on your wallet. Obama was just a scammer.

Trump comes of as a salesman. He's got a pitch for a product that isn't nearly as good as he claims and shouldn't cost what it does but at least you're getting something for your money other than just talk mostly because he knows that if it were just talk he'd be arrested for a scam. Trump is one of those barely scrupulous businessmen you just sometimes have to deal with.

Unscrupulous is a far more apt description.

I never heard of a president involved in so many thousands of lawsuits.

"An analysis by USA Today published in June 2016 found that over the previous three decades, Donald Trump and his businesses have been involved in 3,500 legal cases in U.S. federal courts and state court, an unprecedented number for a U.S. presidential candidate.[1] "

Legal affairs of Donald Trump

"Trump initially came to public attention in 1973 when he was accused by the Justice Department of violations of the Fair Housing Act in the operation of 39 buildings. The Department of Justice said that black "testers" were sent to more than half a dozen buildings and were denied apartments, but a similar white tester would then be offered an apartment in the same building.[9]"
 
https://today.law.harvard.edu/obama-first-made-history-at-hls/
Obama graduated with a law degree and was a Constitutional professor. He was head of the Harvard law review. Some of Trumps profs said he was the dumbest student they ever had.
Trump is a great conman. He was shocked to see his con worked on a national scale, and he recognized it immediately.. That is when he said " I could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose any votes'. That was a horrible recognition.

Obama graduated with a JD in law and barely ever practiced as a lawyer. He was never a "Constitutional professor" but Lecturer then Senior Lecturer at the University of Chicago law school. While that makes him equivalent to a professor, it doesn't make him one. Professors are on the tenure track, lecturers are not. By all measures, his colleagues there didn't think highly of him and students gave declining reviews of his classes with every new semester he taught. Obama never published any academic papers or books, something required of professors.
Also, Obama's courses weren't about Constitutional law but about race and how the law applied to that topic, such as a course on Race and the Constitution.

As President of the Harvard Law Review he is singularly the only one that never wrote a single piece or article for the Review. The President of the Review normally writes articles for inclusion regularly.

Obama was not the stellar intellectual he's often made out to be. His reading lists while in office (yes, there are such things by Presidents) represents a short list of popular fiction and shallow intellectual tripe.

As for Trump, I doubt you can source your claim his professors thought he "Was their dumbest student ever..." That aside, Trump's own view of his college years is summed up right here in his own words:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Trump-The-College-Years/237013

I'd also suggest perusing this article.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christ...o-know-his-grades-or-sat-scores/#36d9d1693764
 
Well, we can kick this around all we like here in the sandbox.

Here's how it has been argued it in the Supreme Court on May 12th:

"Justice Kagan to Petitioner (16:55): So, Mr. Sekulow, you've said that a number of times and made the point, which we have made, that presidents can't be treated just like an ordinary citizen. But it's also true and, indeed, a fundamental precept of our constitutional order that a president isn't above the law. . . . [W]hy isn't the way to deal with these two things, (that the President is special but that the President is like an ordinary citizen in that he's subject to law), is to say the President can make these usual objections that a subpoena recipient can make about harassment or about burden, and the courts in reviewing those, of course, should take seriously the President's objections and treat those with a certain kind of sensitivity and respect due to somebody who is a branch of government. Why isn't that the right way to do it?

Michael Gerhardt: Your Honor, the President should not be treated like an ordinary citizen because he is not. This is especially true with respect to a criminal proceeding. True, Clinton v. Jones says that in civil cases based on pre-presidential misconduct a president is not entitled to any immunity, but in criminal cases the potential for distraction and interference with the President’s doing his job are acute. Presidents may well be like ordinary citizens in that they will fear for their lives and their freedom when confronted with possible criminal charges, but their understandable fear is bound to interfere with their duties – and their preeminent need to be focused on those duties in times of crisis.

Justice Sotomayor to Respondent (1:33:46): I'm not sure that I understood your statement earlier that the only difference between you and the SG -- well, there are two differences, one in the articulation of special needs or heightened standard, but you said it's the burden of proof. But you've already conceded to -- to one of my colleagues that there's an automatic burden on an article -- on the Article II clause by subpoenaing a sitting president, period. . . . What then are you conceding when you say there's a burden? . . . And -- and what kind of burden are you talking about? And, number three, articulate more precisely what problems you have with the heightened standard that Nixon set in its grand jury subpoena.

Michael Gerhardt : Your Honor, I am sorry for any confusion. Briefly, the Solicitor General is trying to apply to this case standards designed to ensure proper consideration of any presidential claims of executive privilege, but there are none here. Therefore, it is inappropriate, we submit, for those standards to be used here. Our concern is that the heightened scrutiny used for Nixon was used in order to protect rightful claims of executive privilege, but here we urge the Court not to allow Mr. Trump to use the presidency as a shield on matters that are unofficial and personal. We ask the Court to follow the same methodology here as it used in the Clinton v. Jones case, a balancing test that takes into account the need for the information and any personal inconvenience caused to the President, such as interference with meetings with foreign leaders. In applying that balancing test in this case, the Court should place the burden of persuasion on the President because he is resisting the subpoena. He must therefore be the one to show why, on balance, he has great needs for privacy here. We do not believe that unsupported claims of inconvenience should shield Mr. Trump from complying with a lawful subpoena. I conclude, your Honor, reminding this Court that our framers rebelled against a king who indeed killed people and engaged in criminal conduct with impunity; the Constitution was not designed to allow a president to act with impunity under any conditions. To the contrary, the Constitution was designed to allow for checking a president, and the checks here, your Honor, are especially important because they have to do with the President’s personal, pre-presidential conduct. Giving Mr. Sekulow and General Francisco what they are requesting on matters that have nothing to do with the presidency places the President above the law."

Current Supreme Court Case Trump v Vance On This Very Matter.

Arguments have been heard. Decision is forthcoming. It could be announced any day...
 
Obama graduated with a JD in law and barely ever practiced as a lawyer. He was never a "Constitutional professor" but Lecturer then Senior Lecturer at the University of Chicago law school. While that makes him equivalent to a professor, it doesn't make him one. Professors are on the tenure track, lecturers are not. By all measures, his colleagues there didn't think highly of him and students gave declining reviews of his classes with every new semester he taught. Obama never published any academic papers or books, something required of professors.
Also, Obama's courses weren't about Constitutional law but about race and how the law applied to that topic, such as a course on Race and the Constitution.

As President of the Harvard Law Review he is singularly the only one that never wrote a single piece or article for the Review. The President of the Review normally writes articles for inclusion regularly.

Obama was not the stellar intellectual he's often made out to be. His reading lists while in office (yes, there are such things by Presidents) represents a short list of popular fiction and shallow intellectual tripe.

As for Trump, I doubt you can source your claim his professors thought he "Was their dumbest student ever..." That aside, Trump's own view of his college years is summed up right here in his own words:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Trump-The-College-Years/237013

I'd also suggest perusing this article.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christ...o-know-his-grades-or-sat-scores/#36d9d1693764
Listen to him speak if you have doubts.
If i got by on Gentlemens Cs and Ds. I would make light of it too. Trump obviously cannot brag about his scholastic achievements.
You would be wrong. https://www.studyinternational.com/news/trump-student-wharton/ You are trying hard to absolve Trump of what is obvious. he is not bright.
 
Listen to him speak if you have doubts.
If i got by on Gentlemens Cs and Ds. I would make light of it too. Trump obviously cannot brag about his scholastic achievements.
You would be wrong. https://www.studyinternational.com/news/trump-student-wharton/ You are trying hard to absolve Trump of what is obvious. he is not bright.

Grades are not the only measure of intellect. Clearly Trump is smart enough to have made billions doing real estate, etc. He couldn't have gotten there being either stupid or ignorant. And, no, his father didn't give him that money either. That's not a defense of Trump, it's pointing out obvious facts about him.

On the other hand, Obama outside getting elected really has never accomplished much in his life. That too is an obvious fact.

What I want to see is the classes they took. If Obama did what I suspect he played the system taking classes he knew were easy A's to maintain his GPA while getting little in the way of an education. Obama got an undergraduate degree in political science one of the more widely acknowledged easy liberal art degrees to get. It's a favorite with law students because it is easy to get and easy to maintain an 4.0 or close to that GPA. The likely reason for this is the course work is mostly subjective in nature.

As for Trump's speech patterns. The guy is a bloviating braggard and internet Troll. He exudes massive self-confidence, even over-confidence in his speeches. His executive style as a CEO (which is what a President really is) seems to be one of [/I]This is what I want, make it happen or I'll find someone to replace you who can...[/I]

Obama's speech pattern is exceptionally good when he's reading from a teleprompter. The guy reads a speech from one like he was born to do it. He can certainly excite and motivate those who are idealistic around him. But when it comes down to the business of being a CEO, Obama is an utter failure. His pattern is This is what I want to do. I'm assigning so-and-so to get it done. I expect great things to happen... that's the last of his involvement with whatever it is. The project inevitably fails as a result of weak and absent leadership. But, it sure sounded great.
 
Grades are not the only measure of intellect. Clearly Trump is smart enough to have made billions doing real estate, etc. He couldn't have gotten there being either stupid or ignorant. And, no, his father didn't give him that money either. That's not a defense of Trump, it's pointing out obvious facts about him.

On the other hand, Obama outside getting elected really has never accomplished much in his life. That too is an obvious fact.

What I want to see is the classes they took. If Obama did what I suspect he played the system taking classes he knew were easy A's to maintain his GPA while getting little in the way of an education. Obama got an undergraduate degree in political science one of the more widely acknowledged easy liberal art degrees to get. It's a favorite with law students because it is easy to get and easy to maintain an 4.0 or close to that GPA. The likely reason for this is the course work is mostly subjective in nature.

As for Trump's speech patterns. The guy is a bloviating braggard and internet Troll. He exudes massive self-confidence, even over-confidence in his speeches. His executive style as a CEO (which is what a President really is) seems to be one of [/I]This is what I want, make it happen or I'll find someone to replace you who can...[/I]

Obama's speech pattern is exceptionally good when he's reading from a teleprompter. The guy reads a speech from one like he was born to do it. He can certainly excite and motivate those who are idealistic around him. But when it comes down to the business of being a CEO, Obama is an utter failure. His pattern is This is what I want to do. I'm assigning so-and-so to get it done. I expect great things to happen... that's the last of his involvement with whatever it is. The project inevitably fails as a result of weak and absent leadership. But, it sure sounded great.

No. his speech is exceptionally good. That claim of teleprompters is a BS right-wing meme .Obama did press conferences every year. Remember those.. All presidents did them. Trump is the only one who wont. Obama has taken questions from Repubs and Red press in unfriendly circumstances and he shined.. You must know after his election he walked into the Repub conference room and said here i am. Ask me anything. Then he made them look like fools . It was so bad, the Repubs say he was taking advantage of them. They were not ready. Everything was on the table.,
 
This is Obama just recently...


I'm not claiming Trump is some great orator, but Obama off the teleprompter and off the cuff is clueless. He reads a great speech though no doubt about that.
 
That's just a major tautological fallacy. It's a variant of If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear... It in essence is arguing that your Right to privacy is really meaningless and that you don't really need it and shouldn't exercise it. It is a logical fallacy called appeal to motive.

This is a very dangerous mindset to have. In US constitutional terms it negates the 4th, 5th and 6th amendments. It argues that you are guilty until proven innocent. After all, If you are not guilty, you have nothing to hide... The reverse is that You are guilty because you are hiding things.

Lawyers will tell you when dealing with police to keep your mouth shut and say nothing. They will use anything you say, however benign you might think it is, against you. Of late, the charge of obstruction of justice and or perjury is often leveled on someone because their testimony under oath over several months varies slightly or is otherwise not identical each time it is given.

There could be any number of reasons Trump doesn't want to release his tax forms. These could go from simply not wanting to because he is not legally required to, to they could contain information that could be used by business rivals to their advantage, or anything in between.
So, Trump has the Right to not release them, and whatever his reasons, those should be respected. You, and I for that matter, may not like it, but that is a legal and just position for him to take if he chooses.

Based on tRumps massive ego, it's a perfect assessment. He wouldnt hesitate to flaunt them if he wasnt afraid of having their contents revealed.
The funny thing is, every tRump hipocrit defender would have raised 9 kinds of hell had Obama pulled the same stunt.
 
Why not release your personal information to the mocking bird Marxist left wing media? 1. The rule of law is still applicable for everyone....to include the POTUS. The IRS is prohibited from releasing private tax information to 3rd parties.....UNLESS there is "evidence" of criminal activity. Thus far THE LEFT has been unable to obtain this information because they have no evidence that would require disclosure of this information. As hard as they have tired, at every level of government...local, state, and federal.....the rule of law has protected Mr. Trump from this invasion of privacy.

2. This information is used to "trigger" left wing conspiracy nuts. :bigthink:

And you are simply "deflecting" as usual in defense of tRump. The fact is that tRump said he could NOT release them because they were under audit. That my friend is simply a bold faced LIE.
 
Grades are not the only measure of intellect. Clearly Trump is smart enough to have made billions doing real estate, etc. He couldn't have gotten there being either stupid or ignorant. And, no, his father didn't give him that money either. That's not a defense of Trump, it's pointing out obvious facts about him.

On the other hand, Obama outside getting elected really has never accomplished much in his life. That too is an obvious fact.

What I want to see is the classes they took. If Obama did what I suspect he played the system taking classes he knew were easy A's to maintain his GPA while getting little in the way of an education. Obama got an undergraduate degree in political science one of the more widely acknowledged easy liberal art degrees to get. It's a favorite with law students because it is easy to get and easy to maintain an 4.0 or close to that GPA. The likely reason for this is the course work is mostly subjective in nature.

As for Trump's speech patterns. The guy is a bloviating braggard and internet Troll. He exudes massive self-confidence, even over-confidence in his speeches. His executive style as a CEO (which is what a President really is) seems to be one of [/I]This is what I want, make it happen or I'll find someone to replace you who can...[/I]

Obama's speech pattern is exceptionally good when he's reading from a teleprompter. The guy reads a speech from one like he was born to do it. He can certainly excite and motivate those who are idealistic around him. But when it comes down to the business of being a CEO, Obama is an utter failure. His pattern is This is what I want to do. I'm assigning so-and-so to get it done. I expect great things to happen... that's the last of his involvement with whatever it is. The project inevitably fails as a result of weak and absent leadership. But, it sure sounded great.

tRump is also dumb enough to have lost mega bucks. That said, you really have no idea how much money tRump actually has or how much he owes. Such is the benefit of running a private company.
 
No. I want to see the transcripts. If, for sake of argument, Obama took all "fluff" courses and the easy stuff while Trump took nuclear engineering with physics and calculus then I'd argue that Obama is probably the less intelligent and mentally capable. Of course, that's an obvious exaggeration but it makes the point.
When I went to college many decades ago, in engineering there was a joke going around. It had an integration where the gpa went from 4.0 to 0 as a function of Major that went from Engineering and Science to Business to Liberal Arts to Fine Arts. Us engineering and science students thought of the liberal arts / fine arts side of campus as a sort of kindergarten where the stupid hung out.

As for law school, I contemptuously call that a "Simple liberal arts graduate degree." The best and brightest are not usually lawyers.

Yes, I have heard both speak.

Obama sounds like one of those travelling Southern revival tent preachers working the crowd. He's a slick talker who you shouldn't believe a word coming out of his mouth but be concerned about his hand on your wallet. Obama was just a scammer.

Trump comes of as a salesman. He's got a pitch for a product that isn't nearly as good as he claims and shouldn't cost what it does but at least you're getting something for your money other than just talk mostly because he knows that if it were just talk he'd be arrested for a scam. Trump is one of those barely scrupulous businessmen you just sometimes have to deal with.

Who has ever had to show transcripts...ever. Do you want an Obama birth certificate? Who else had to show theirs? You have no right to see them. You had no right to the birth certificate either.
Trumps has a 5th grade vocabulary. He shows his intelligence every time he speaks as he says incredible over and over. It is grating to hear him speak.That is what Trump has told you about his intelligence. Pay attention.
 
Using Nixon as an example is bad. he had to pay a big bill for shorting taxes. He was caught. Does anyone think Trump could survive an audit? The assholes cheats at golf. He lies constantly. Trumop will not show his taxes because he is involved with Russian banks. Putin has laundered an incredible amount of money. So have Russian oligarchs. They were using the bank of Cyprus as a go-between. That bank president was Wilbur Ross. The vehicle they used was real estate. Can you see how Trump fit in?
 
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Who has ever had to show transcripts...ever. Do you want an Obama birth certificate? Who else had to show theirs? You have no right to see them. You had no right to the birth certificate either.
Trumps has a 5th grade vocabulary. He shows his intelligence every time he speaks as he says incredible over and over. It is grating to hear him speak.That is what Trump has told you about his intelligence. Pay attention.

Your ad hominem aside, I simply said I would like to see college transcripts. Is that any different than you demanding to see Trump's tax returns? Neither have to be released, but you are making an argument one is inviolate (the transcripts) while the other is not only acceptable, but nearly mandatory.

The birth certificate thing is a canard and nothing more, a distraction in the form of an ad hominem.

Then you finish with more ad hominem and close with a personal insult. Not a particularly good response.
 
Personally, I could care less about tRump's transcripts except to prove that he likely lied "big time" about his grades. Then again, given tRumps pathological lying disorder, I would be surprised if he didnt lie about them.
 
Your ad hominem aside, I simply said I would like to see college transcripts. Is that any different than you demanding to see Trump's tax returns? Neither have to be released, but you are making an argument one is inviolate (the transcripts) while the other is not only acceptable, but nearly mandatory.

The birth certificate thing is a canard and nothing more, a distraction in the form of an ad hominem.

Then you finish with more ad hominem and close with a personal insult. Not a particularly good response.

There was no ad hominem. The canard was one Trump ran with for 5 years. It is a horrible example of what kind of person he is.
No Trump's supposed wealth does not save him from a half dozen bankruptcies. He bankrupted 3 casinos. What talent does that require? His dad bailed him out many times. Trump is supposed to be the only person who lost a billion dollars in a day.
If you cannot ascertain the difference in intellect between Trump and Obama, I would suggest it is your mindset. It is obvious who has the smarts.
 
I concur. Polite, civil discourse is always best. As to your two points:

The first, Trump might be a liar, or he might have changed his mind on releasing them. Either way, he's also now a politician so lying would seem to be part of the job description if you ask me. If, instead, he changed his mind, that's his Right as it is with anyone else.

The second is something of a smear as it paints with a very broad brush. Personally, I could care less about Trump's tax returns. I'd rather see his college transcripts, as I would with Obama. Anyway this point, as you have made it, makes something of a logical fallacy in itself. It is a fallacy of composition in that it makes a premise and then connects it to a larger group or pattern without proof.
To make this claim first, you would have to be able to show that a majority--at a minimum-- of Trump "enablers" hold such a position regarding his taxes and then how that is carried over to other areas.
I see Trump's handling of the COVID-19 thing as a separate issue in this case since arguing that he "totally botch(ed)" it is essentially Proof of a Negative demand since we really don't know what the alternative outcomes would have been.

Yeah...….not "triggered" at all...…...that's why YOU DID NOT RETORT. :laugh:
 
Wanting to see tRumps grades instead of his tax returns is very interesting. Almost a form of "avoiding" what might be found in a financial context.
 
Wanting to see tRumps grades instead of his tax returns is very interesting. Almost a form of "avoiding" what might be found in a financial context.
There must be a reason. He said he would show them. Can it be for a good and honest reason? No, you can erase that. It has to have something bad, otherwise, he would honor what he said he would do.
None will be seen , not Trump's transcripts, his physicals or his taxes... Trump has no intention of doing what other presidents and candidates have done. There is no benign reason. If he had proof that he was not a crook. he would buy TV time and show them happily so everyone would know.
 
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